Rapture: hocus-pocus

Is hope so hard that you can never see it?
When Jesus comes to get me, it will be
BEFORE the Tribulation period judgement.
When Jesus comes to get you, it will be
BEFORE the Tribulation period judgement.
You can bank on it.

Nevertheless, you will have tribulation.
How are you going to hope thru the
real physical/mental/spiritual tribulation
that you know life will bring you
with no hope that Jesus is going to
come get you BEFORE the Tribulation
period judgements start.

 

Greetings in Jesus' name,

Just as nothing in Matthew 24:29-31 requires or even suggests that the first seven uses of "and" in that passage refer to seven different times, or that the eighth and ninth uses of "and" in that passage refer to two different times, so nothing requires or even suggests that the eighth use of "and" in that passage refers to a different time.

Actually Jesus is asked only two questions before His Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:3
1. When shall these things be?
2. What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (or age)?

Mark 13:4
1. When shall these things be?
2. What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21:7
1. When shall these things be?
2. What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Regarding the second question, in Matthew 24, verses 27-31 refer to the same "coming of the Son of man" as verses 37-51. There's no third coming.

The scriptures nowhere refer to a church age, but instead say that the church will continue "throughout all ages" (Ephesians 3:21). The church is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).

Luke 21:24 says that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, and Revelation 11:2 says that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles during the tribulation; therefore, the times of the Gentiles can't be fulfilled before the tribulation.

When we go through the Bible, we find that the scriptures nowhere refer to an age of grace, but show grace operating in the Old Testament (see Genesis 6:8 and Exodus 33:17 for just two examples of a myriad of such references), and the saved saints in the tribulation (e.g. Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13) will be under God's grace.

In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation. Mark 13:24-27 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 confirms that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.

When we look at the scriptures, we see that none of the seven seals (Revelation 6) or the seven trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation is ever called a judgment. Only the seven vials (Revelation 16) are referred to as judgments (Revelation 15:4; 16:7), and they will in no way be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).

Our true and blessed hope is the hope of eternal life (Titus 1:2; 2:13; 3:7; 1 Thessalonians 5:8; Romans 8:23-25; Acts 23:6), which will be fulfilled in Christ Himself (1 Timothy 1:1; John 14:6; Colossians 1:27), and which will be given to us at the very end (Matthew 24:13), at the revelation of Christ (1 Peter 1:13). Knowing that we will go into the tribulation doesn't rob us of our hope for eternal life at the second coming. Tribulation and hope aren't mutually exclusive; rather, tribulation works patience, and patience experience, and experience hope (Romans 5:3-4), so that we can both rejoice in hope and be patient in tribulation (Romans 12:12).

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

I agree, Jesus is very clear in Matthew when he comes to gather his elect. Our Lord and Saviour says:

"IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS".....

There is no other reference to us being snatched away before the tribulation.

What if the pre-trib rapture teaching was a lie of Satan? He does manipulate the Scripture to confuse and deceive. Could this be another one of his lies?

How many pre-trib Christians would fall away and deny God if we entered the Tribulation? Wouldn't they feel lied too by God? Would this be what Satan wants?

One thing that has always bothered me is why should I hope to be raptured, when other Christians are being killed for their faith as we speak. What about the 2 million+ Christians killed in Sudan by Muslims? What about the millions killed and imprisoned in China? Why are we so special that we think we can avoid tribulation?

Tribulation and Wrath are two separate things.

We as Americans have become spoiled. We don't know what tribulation is. In the Army, I was able to see some things that opened my eyes in other countries. We truly are blessed as a nation, but Christians have been, and will be persecuted. Imagine the Christians that were fed to lions! Why did they have to endure such things?

We aren't worthy for a pre-trib rapture considering what our Christian bretheren have endured before us and what they are enduring right now as we speak.

 

JeffN: "We aren't worthy for a pre-trib rapture ... "

Amen Brother JeffN. And if we are in an unworthiness contest,
i bow to your superior unworthiness
However, this point is to total non-player in the
rapture timing discussion. God is NOT going to have a
pretribulation rapture/resurrection when he finds a
generation worthy of it. The pretribualtion rapture/resurrection
is a part of God's eternal plan. God will have a
pretribulation raputre when He wants to start off the
Tribulation period judgements.

<-- ed, praising Jesus one hand at a time

 

Luke 21:36 tells us, we ought always be watch and pray, and to be accounted worthy to escape from all things that shall come to pass, speak of God's wrath and also face the judgment seat of Christ. OR.... IF we do not watch and pray, we might face the wrath of God to punish us to enter everlasting punishment - lake of fire. Bible urges us, always be watch and pray all the times, so we are worthy to escape from His wrath and everlasting punishment. That means, we ought always walking godly daily and be blamless TILL Christ comes. Because we all shall face the judgement day.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

JeffM: "Tribulation and Wrath are two separate things."

Actually they are very similar.
The Wrath of God is tribulation on the
unjust (not on the just).

2 Thess 3:9a (KJV1769):
God hath not appointed us to wrath ...

How we love to add to it and make it read:

God hath not appointed us to
THE wrath OF GOD.

 

Greetings in Jesus' name,

We are commanded to pray always that we might be accounted worthy to escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36). But Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-trib rapture because some will escape the coming tribulation by dying before it starts (Isaiah 57:1; compare 2 Chronicles 34:28), or by receiving miraculous protection on the earth during the tribulation (Revelation 12:14).

The Bible doesn't say that the rapture is for escape from the tribulation; rather it says that the rapture is for the gathering together of believers into the clouds to meet Christ in the air at His second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Mark 13:24-27).

In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation.

The church will go through the great tribulation (Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13) without being appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), for no one in heaven calls the seals (Revelation 6) or trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation wrath. They only call the vials of the tribulation (Revelation 16) wrath, and none of the vials will be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

I got this in my e-mail.
I'll not grant the author with free publicity:

// > Right now I'm going to do something out of character. I'm going to
>predict that one of these days some unthinkably horrendous event (or
>events) will cause many Laodicean-type Christians to not only abandon
>pretrib in droves but even become physically violent toward their pretrib
>teachers! Some of those "Laodiceans" may fall away to such a degree they
>may even kill some of those teachers!
> Years ago my wife and I visited an elderly fellow believer in his home
>in Alberta, Canada who told us, from firsthand knowledge, that soon after
>the Bolsheviks seized power in Russia in 1917, a man in that country went
>to his pastor, angrily threw down his Bible, and shouted: "You lied to us!
>You said we would be raptured away first!"
> The Dutch heroine Corrie ten Boom declared in a 1974 article that when
>communism took over in China "millions of Christians were tortured to
>death" who had previously been assured: "Don't worry, before the
>tribulation comes you will be translated----raptured."
> And violence among Christians took place in Korea a few years ago
>after a predicted rapture failed to happen!//

I worry when folks make it look like other Christians are a fool.
How many sermons does one have to hear what
Jesus promised us in John 16:33 (KJV1769)


Joh 16:33 - Show Context
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace.
In the world ye shall have tribulation:
but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The quoted passage makes a fool of Christians.
But it playes the unknown author more:
for he fails to distinuish between "tribulation" the
condition and "Tribulation" the time period between
the Church Age and the Millennial Kingdom of Christ Age
when the Antichrist shall run amuck. Two different kinds
of tribulation, but the poor author cannot distuinguish between
the two, failing to distuinguish his right hand from his
left

 

And triple back unto you blessing-wise.
Say, when you quote a time would you denote
what time, GMT? EDT? PDT? Thank you
for your considertation in this matter.
Most of the times i get are EDT, unless one
changes it in one's profile.

Postrib: "We are commanded to pray always that we might be accounted worthy to escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36)."

My translation doesn't read like that.
Plese show me your reading in my Bible:

Luke 21:36 (HCSB):

But be alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.

I don't see the Tribulation Period Judgement(s)
there at all. Sounds more like the common
tribulation conditions that beset us all,
especially we that follow the Lord.

DeafPosttrib: "Luke 21:36 tells us, we ought always be watch and pray, and to be accounted worthy to escape from all things that shall come to pass, speak of God's wrath and also face the judgment seat of Christ."

Whow! My Bible doesn't say "be accounted worthy".
Mine doesn't speak of God's wrath (which we don't need to
worry about, ever).

Here is what my Bible does say.
Please so that this verse backs your statement. Thank you.

Luke 21:36 (CJB = The Complete Jewish Bible)
Stay alert, always praying that you will have the strength to escape all the things that will happen and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man."

 

How utterly convienient. Yet no change affects doctrine.

 

Alright, here it is:

S.Luke XXI:36 (KJV1611)
Watch ye therefore, and pray alwayes,
that ye may be accompted worthy to
escape all these things that shall
come to passe, and to stand before the
sonne of man.

What does it mean "accompted"?
Is the 1611 term "accompted" the same
as the 1679 term "accounted"?

 

Ed,

I will reply back to you about Luke 21:36 tomorrow night. And continue more discuss about rapture.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

OK, I'll bite. But next time do your own homework (Google "accompted", about 10 minutes)before you ask a question. Context clues my friend!

Foxe's Book of Martyrs:

A godly letter made, by Sir
Henry Sidney Knight. (good advise BTW)

Answers to Segar's Questions on Combat:

The Examination of John Petcher of Appleby:

Diocesan Registry. Document No. 76. Lib: Caus: p. 1683.

William Roper
The Lyfe of Sir Thomas Moore

My verdict? But we already knew this: The 1611 spelling "accompted" is the same word
as the 1679 word "accounted". It is the same preserved word. spelled differently. Now will you submit to it?

Lacy

 

Postrib: //Actually Jesus is asked only two questions before His Olivet Discourse:

//Matthew 24:3
1. When shall these things be?
2. What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (or age)?

//Mark 13:4
1. When shall these things be?
2. What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

//Luke 21:7
1. When shall these things be?
2. What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?//

My explanation showing three questions in the Matthew 24:3
account gives a summary of the answer Jesus gave to that
specific quesiton.

What are the answers Jesus gave to these questions?

 

Postrib: "Greetings in Jesus' name,"


-------------------------------------------------------------
From the post in this thread made on May 03, 2004 08:09 AM:
". . . the polysyndeton 'and' . . . "
-------------------------------------------------------------

Postrib: //Just as nothing in Matthew 24:29-31 requires or even suggests that the first seven uses of "and" in that passage refer to seven different times, or that the eighth and ninth uses of "and" in that passage refer to two different times, so nothing requires or even suggests that the eighth use of "and" in that passage refers to a different time.//

Nice irony
you know there are different "and"s here with different meanings.
Figure out which is which, it is required by 2 Timothy 2:15.
I personnnaly don't find it strange that prophetic writings
use retorical divices like similies, polysyndetons, etc.

 

I am not a "postie". But I don't believe I Thess is a reference to the pre-trib rapture at all. This is a reference to the resurrection and second coming at the end of the trib. I Cor 15:52 proves that this "trump" in I Thess, is the last trump. The last trump is near the end of the trib. The verses that refer to a pre-trib rapture are Luke 21:36 and Rev 3:10. The references to the "thief in the night" coming refer to the First-fruits rapture. The "with a shout" references refer to the general harvest of the rez at the second coming. Here is what I believe to be the order.

1) First fruits rapture. Secret, (Luke 17:34-36) Luke 21:36, Rev 3:10. Please note all the references to this rapture speak of watchfulness and readiness on the part of the rapturee. I believe it is conditional. First fruit =1st ripe (Practical holiness in his walk.)


2) Other "catchings away" during the trib. (Also first fruits.) Rev 15:2, Rev 14:3, Rev 11:11-13.

3) The First Resurrection The general harvest. At the last trump, with a shout, every man shall see, etc. (see above)
also

4) The Judgment Seat Of Christsee v 18 above.

5) The Millennial Kingdom -1000 years.

6) general Rez of all those in Hell Rev 19, 20

7) The Great White Throne Judgment of those in Hell, death, and the sea to determine whether their names are in the Book Of Life. (All lost, Satan, the Beast, the False Prophet, and Hell cast into Lake of Fire)

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

8) The Last Day. Eternity. New Heaven and New Earth.

 

Greetings in Jesus' name,

The scriptures nowhere refer to a church age, but instead say that the church will continue "throughout all ages" (Ephesians 3:21). The church is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).

Luke 21:36 refers to "all these things that shall come to pass": all the tribulation events just described in Luke 21:8-26. But when we look at the scriptures, we see that none of the seven seals (Revelation 6) or the seven trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation is ever called a judgment. Only the seven vials (Revelation 16) are referred to as judgments (Revelation 15:4; 16:7), and they'll in no way be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).

In the KJV, the Greek word translated "accounted worthy" (kataxioo, Strong's #2661) in Luke 21:36 is translated "accounted worthy" in Luke 20:35, "counted worthy" in Acts 5:41, and "counted worthy" in 2 Thessalonians 1:5.

Again, the church will go through the great tribulation (Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13) without being appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), for no one in heaven calls the seals (Revelation 6) or trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation wrath. They only call the vials of the tribulation (Revelation 16) wrath, and none of the vials will be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).

The Mark 13:4 account and the Luke 21:7 account of the same discussion as Matthew 24:3 confirm that in the Matthew 24:3 account Jesus is asked only two questions: when, and what sign.

Both questions are answered at the same time, for Matthew 24:4-8 says in effect "when you see these signs the time is just beginning"; Matthew 24:9-28 says in effect "when you see these signs the time will get really bad, but still it won't be completed"; Matthew 24:29-31 says in effect "when you see these signs the time is over "; then Matthew 24:32-51 takes a step back and says in effect "look, you're going to know by all these signs when my coming is near, but don't get complacent thinking you have time to be wicked before I come."

There are nine and's in Matthew 24:29-31, and nothing suggests that any one of them has a different meaning than the rest. They're all part of one description of what will happen at the second coming.

Again, Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-trib rapture because some will escape the coming tribulation by dying before it starts (Isaiah 57:1; compare 2 Chronicles 34:28), or by receiving miraculous protection on the earth during the tribulation (Revelation 12:14). The Bible doesn't say that the rapture is for escape from the tribulation; rather it says that the rapture is for the gathering together of believers into the clouds to meet Christ in the air at His second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Mark 13:24-27).

Revelation 3:10 is addressing only one of the seven first-century church congregations in the Roman Province of Asia (Revelation 1:4, 11) regarding a first-century time of trial, just as Revelation 2:10 is addressing one of the first-century church congregations in the Roman Province of Asia regarding a first-century time of trial. You can't take Revelation 3:10 without also taking Revelation 2:10.

There won't be a secret coming of Christ. He expressly warned against those who would teach a secret coming. His coming will be as opposite to secret as lightning which fills the sky from east to west (Matthew 24:26-27). He'll descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16), and with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matthew 24:30), so that every eye will see Him (Revelation 1:7).

Luke 17:34-36 refers not to a secret event, but to what will happen at the revelation of Christ (Luke 17:30), the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41), at which time the elect won't be taken or left, but gathered together (Matthew 24:31). Unbelievers will either be taken to where the birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28; Revelation 19:21) or left alive (Zechariah 14:16-18). So the one taken, one left event is neither secret, nor before the tribulation, nor does it refer to believers at all.

In the Bible, in the original Greek, to "watch" (gregoreuo, Strong's #1127) doesn't mean to stare up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake, whether physically (Matthew 26:40) or spiritually (1 Thessalonians 5:6). During the tribulation, faithful Christians will need to stay spiritually awake (Revelation 16:15) just as faithful Christians have always needed to stay spiritually awake

Jesus is addressing the same church, the same "ye" in Matthew 24:36-51 ("be ye also ready") that He's addressing in Matthew 24:3-35 ("ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation"), just as He's referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" in Matthew 24:36-51 that He's referring to in Matthew 24:3-35, "immediately after the tribulation." There's no third coming.

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

quote ed:
-----------------------------------------------------
From the post in this thread made on May 15, 2004
10:14 PM EDT: ". . . there are different 'and's here
[Matthew 24:29-31] with different meanings . . . "
-----------------------------------------------------

Postrib: "There are nine and's in Matthew 24:29-31,
and nothing suggests that any one of them has
a different meaning than the rest. They're all
part of one description of what will happen
at the second coming."

Yes, these verses do describe the Second Coming of Jesus
which is in two phases:

1. the rapture/resurrection before the tribulation period judgements
2. the second advent of Jesus when he comes to destroy the
antichrist and set up a physical millinnial kingdom

These two phases bring great hope for the future.
And all you have to do is understand the meaning of use
of the English word "and" (or the Greek word "ki", if you can).
But there is gone aboard upon the the American Baptist scene a
severe cult of ingorance (I'm mentioning it, i am not assingning
posters to that movement) where ignorance is a doctrine.
Present company excepted, this failure to understand "and"
comes from this doctrine of ignorance.

Please look in a dictionary and see that "and" has several
definitions. I find it a flaw to suggest that God can't use
more than one "and" in His Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD).

The nature of the questions asked in Matthew 24:3 require various
"and" meanings. The nature of the discourse of Jesus demands'
different "and" meanings. The nature of the Greek language
describing the discourse of Jesus requires different "and" meanings.
The meaning of what Jesus says requires different "and" meanings here.

 

Ed,

I'm back. I am make post on this at the library. Because my computer is still repairing right now. Hope it will be fixed tomorrow. I was fraustrate with pop-ups attacks against my computer while use AOL internet for type any links. Yesterday, I was very sick. My throat is better, fever is less, but still cold. I am not 100% healing comepletely. I am still sick.

Ed,

HOW can you prove Matt 24:31 saying our gathering together shall be BEFORE tribulation, while Christ doesn't saying 'before tribulation'?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Greetings in Jesus' name,

No scripture refers to or requires multiple phases of the second coming whereby Jesus comes, goes back to heaven for some years, and then comes back again a third time. There's no third coming.

No scripture says the rapture/resurrection will be before the tribulation. Mark 13:24-27 says the rapture will be after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to the same coming and gathering together (verse 1), saying that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 says we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we'll need patience and faith during that time.

Again, when we look at the scriptures, we see that none of the seven seals (Revelation 6) or the seven trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation is ever called a judgment. Only the seven vials (Revelation 16) are referred to as judgments (Revelation 15:4; 16:7), and they'll in no way be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).

The Bible says the rapture will be at the "coming" of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Corinthians 15:23; Matthew 24:29-31), and there's no third coming.

Going into the tribulation won't rob us of our great hope for eternal life at the second coming. Tribulation and hope aren't mutually exclusive; rather, tribulation works patience, and patience experience, and experience hope (Romans 5:3-4), so that we can both rejoice in hope and be patient in tribulation (Romans 12:12), hoping firm unto the end (Hebrews 3:6; 6:11; compare Matthew 24:13), unto the revelation of Christ (1 Peter 1:13).

Just as nothing in Matthew 24:29-31 requires or even suggests that the first seven uses of "and" in that passage refer to seven different times, or that the eighth and ninth uses of "and" in that passage refer to two different times, so nothing requires or even suggests that the eighth use of "and" in that passage refers to a different time.

Actually, they don't.

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.