Daniel 9:26, 27

Brother Primitive Baptist, your questions defy answers.
Your questions show the futility of resolving
"he" in Daniel 9:27 as "Messiah".
The first "he" and second "he" in Daniel 9:27
refer to the "coming prince" of Daniel 9:26.
I believe as a futurist that this coming prince
is the antichrist of 1 John, and the Beast from the
Sea of Revelation 13.

Strange how different eschatologies are caused
by the variant resolution of pronouns.

In the past people did not honor members of the
Holy Trinity by capitalizing pronouns reffering
to Them. This helps with pronoun resolution.
Now it is common to capitalize pronouns
refering to members of the Holy Trinity.

Daniel 9:27 (HCSB = HOlman Christian Standard Bible):

He will make a firm covenant
with many for one week,
but in the middle of the week
he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.
And the abomination of desolation
will be on a wing of the temple
until the decreed destruction
is poured out on the desolator.

The first "he" is capalized, the beginning of
a sentence. The second "he" is the small letter
"h" "he" denoting a Non-diety. Jesus, the Christ,
is the subject of verse 26. Jesus is a member of
the Blessed Trinity. The translators of the
HCSB believe the second "he" has a referrant
of "the coming prince". I believe that the
referrant of the first "he" in Daniel 9:27 is
also "the coming prince". It is the
coming prince that does the covenent,
puts a stop to sacrifice and offering
and commits the AOD = abomination of desolation.

---------------------------------------
I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
-------------------------------------------------------
The correct answer to your questions, brother
Primitive Baptist, is the Doctrine
of the pretribulation rapture,
pre-millinnial Second Advent, futurist (both the
pretribulation rapture and pre-millinnial Second
Advent are physical and will occur in the future
/i.e. have NOT happend in the past/ ).

 

PrimBapt,

Do not follow your 65 and ½ reasoning. You jump from seventy sevens, seven, sixty-two, and one and then add the years of the final week in as weeks. If you are going to add 3 and ½, you should add it to 483, not 69, or 62. It is seventy sevens that are determined, or 490 years.

There is clearly a gap between the 69th and the 70th week. Even those who hold that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 fulfilled the 70th week have a gap of about 30+ years. The difference is not in whether there is a gap, it is in how long. Some do argue for a gap between week seven and week eight, based on the breakdown into 7-62-1. The chronology of the first 69 does not require a gap between 7 and 8, according to the calculations of Sir Robert Anderson. Others, argue for the gap there as well.

The “he” of verse 27 most naturally refers to the nearest antecedent, “the prince that shall come”, not “Messiah”. The Romans were the ones who destroyed the city and the sanctuary.

My problem with the common amil/postmil interp of v. 27 is that it gives not satisfactory answers to some key issues in the passage.

What was the covenant for one week, if it is talking about Messiah?

When did the “sacrifice and oblation” cease?

Why does Daniel view the destruction of the city and the sanctuary (v. 26) as occurring before the covenant of the final week?

AND, how can the destruction of Jerusalem be reconciled with a view that Christ was cut off during the 70th week when His death and AD 70 are out of sequence and separated by 30+ years?

 

PrimBapt,

Should have noted that I think I agree with where you seem to be headed with this, even if I don't agree with your 65 and 1/2 calculation.

 

PB,

We are on the same page here, I am pretty sure! Comparing Scripture with Scripture and following a CLGH hermeneutic their interpretation of Messiah being cut off in the midst of the 70th week COULD NOT be true IMHO. Too many unanswered questions or at least ineffectively answered questions (see earlier post). Just noted that you added “When did Jesus make a 7-yr. covenant with anybody?” as I was writing my post, I asked this as well...

Did you see the possibility of a gap between week 7 and 8?

 

Dan 11:22? for "prince of the covenant"?

 

Been quite a while since I have studied that point but the view basically holds that the time from the Decree of Cyrus to the "cutting off" of the Messiah covers a period of more than 483 years, thereby rejecting the chronology of Anderson. Do not know who specifically has published a detailed breakdown of alternative chronologies though.

Would recommend “Dictionary of Premillennial Theology” edited by Mal Couch as a good general reference tool. The work gives a good overview of both the amil and premil views of Daniel’s Seventy Weeks. Under “Anderson, Sir Robert”, Couch notes that more recent works on the chronology shed more light on Anderson’s calculations. If it is of special interest let me know and will research my Theo Journals on the matter and forward to you.

 

This is a hard text which is crucial to eschatology.

The text of Dan.9 has been argued from several faulty alleged facts. (One of them being 70 weeks running consecutively.) The prophecy does not concern AT ANY TIME, a sum of 69 weeks as consecutive. There are THREE PERIODS, which total 70 weeks. (7-62-1) One is distinguished by a break in the MIDST, not middle. The PROPHETIC statement of EVENTS determine the fulfillment, not HISTORICAL DATING.

The second period of years is over, while the first one has started WITHOUT ending, and the last has not began AS OF YET.

It appears there are "breaks" between all three, while some run concurrently.

Check out the link and see what you think.

http://p079.ezboard.com/fthemidweekrapturefrm91.showMessage?topicID=11.topic

 

Context, the 70 weeks deal with Old Covenant Jews and Jerusalem.

Dan 9: 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

Not all.

Funny, the nearest antecedent to prince in 26 is Messiah the prince in vs. 25.

It could be argued very easily that it was the Jews who destroyed their Temple and even the city. Just as the Romans crucified Jesus, the NT writers lay the blame on the Jews. The Jews instigated the war.

They ceased when Messiah became the sacrifice.

The Destruction was determined during the 70th week because of Jewish rejection, it was not to happen during the 70th week.(Luke 19:41-44) (Dt. 28)

In the 70th week, Jesus came to finish up Old Covenant business with Judea and Israel. (Matt 10:6 & 15:24) Then the end would come.

Perhaps Antiochus IV, 171BC

I have found no matter which view you hold to it has it’s own problems in Dan 9.

My questions:

1. Why do we assume a gap? I don’t believe there is one. Only pre-suppositions lead one to insert a gap.
2. Did Jesus know of this gap when He preached the Kingdom?
3. If He did, then He offered a Kingdom which COULD NOT be accepted since I think we all agree the Kingdom comes at the end of the 70th week.
4. If the Kingdom did not come because of Jewish rejection then the Kingdom was conditional(time-wise). Find me any OT or NT passages that says the Kingdom was in anyway conditional. Dan 2 makes no such statement.
5. If there was a gap and Jesus didn’t know it then??? We don’t want to go there.

 

Grasshopper: "1. Why do we assume a gap? I don’t believe there
is one. Only pre-suppositions lead one to insert a gap."

Actually the gap comes from the study of history.
There was no physical throne in Jerusalem nor any physcial
King Jesus reigning upon it Not following the 69th week
nor the 70th week.

Grasshopper: "2. Did Jesus know of this gap when He preached the Kingdom?"

YEs, but he didn't tell anybody.

Grasshopper: "3. If He did, then He offered a Kingdom
which COULD NOT be accepted since I think we all agree
the Kingdom comes at the end of the 70th week."

Exactly. See Romans 11. I believe the the Millinnial Kingdom
of God would have started in 40AD (33+7) had the Jews
accepted the time of their visitation.

Luke 19:41 (HCSB):

As He approached and saw the city, He wept over it,
42 saying, "If you knew this day what leads to peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
43 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you, surround you, and hem you in on every side.
44 They will crush you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave one stone on another in you, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."


Grasshopper: "4. If the Kingdom did not come because of Jewish
rejection then the Kingdom was conditional(time-wise).
Find me any OT or NT passages that says the Kingdom was
in anyway conditional. Dan 2 makes no such statement."

One problem you have is that you don't understand that a Triune
God has a Triune kingdom?

1. the eternal kingdom within individual Christians
2. the physical millinnial kingdom
3. the eternal heavnly kingdom

Someday i'll write a book.

Grasshopper: "5. If there was a gap and Jesus didn’t know it then???
We don’t want to go there."

Did the Jews REALLY have a choice to accept or reject their
Messiah? Or did God force them into what He knew would happen?

 

Carl,

Briefly looked. Plan to look more later. Rosenthal did a pretty good job on his presentation of the pre-wrath idea. His is the best I have seen for any other than a pretrib position. I was not convinced. I am still not convinced. I remain pre-trib.

Would suggest Waalvoord's "Rapture Question".

 

RJ,

I have all the books by the prewrath folks. I wasn't impressed with Rosey when it first came out (1990). Vankampen and Nigro's aren't any better. They use a lot of scripture, wrongly; while "correcting by retranslation" to teach their points. Although they profess their non-scholarship, they PULL OUT "education" every time they need to do so. I have Walvoords' books also.

Yes, if you would like, we could discuss the 70 weeks perspective. I came up with that chart a while back. That's the ONLY way I know to reconcile those things biblically.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

I don't think this proves a conditional Kingdom. Verse 15 is the key to when this was to occur. It seems clear verse 15 refers to the Gentiles coming into the Church. This puts it in the 1st century. Here are what some commentaries say:

Adam Clarke

Verse 15. And they that are far off shall come

The Gentiles shall come to the Saviour of the world; and build-become a part of this new temple; for they, as living stones, shall become a holy temple, a habitation of God through the Spirit.

Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament

Verse 15
And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of Jehovah; and ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts hath sent me unto you. And [this] shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of Jehovah your God.

They that are far off…

If there is an expression in the entire Old Testament that means Gentiles, it is this one, being exactly the terminology used by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost when Peter announced the gospel as being for them that are afar off (Acts 2:39), thus placing a divine seal upon this whole revelation and certifying it as a prophecy of the times of the Messiah and of the coming of the Gentiles into the church of God. The ones that were far off were those not included with Israel in the covenant. They were the nations, or Gentiles of the world. In the new era, however, even the Gentiles would be admitted to fellowship with God.

If ye will diligently obey…

Neither the future building of the true temple of God as the church of Jesus Christ, nor the glorious Advent of Him who would build it, was doubtful in the slightest degree. All that was promised would be accomplished with or without Israel's participation; but the persons who would participate in the new order, or have anything at all to do with the true kingdom of God, depended upon an obedient spirit in the participants. The vast majority of secular Israel would have nothing of a spiritual kingdom; but the holy apostles constituting the righteous remnant of the true Israel would hail the Messiah when He came, worship Him as God, rally together after His crucifixion and resurrection, and then go forth into all the world shouting, He is risen, sealing their testimony with their blood, and establishing the church of Christ throughout all the world for millenniums of time!

John Gill

And they [that are] afar off shall come…
.
Into the temple; not the material temple; nor is this a prophecy which was fulfilled in Herod, a stranger, repairing that, as Kimchi suggests; but into the spiritual temple, the church; and is a prophecy of the calling of the Gentiles, who are said to be "afar off", (Ephesians 2:12,13) , from God; from having his image on them; from subjection to his law; from the knowledge and fear of him; and from communion with him: from Christ; from the knowledge of his person, righteousness, and salvation by him; from love to him, faith in him, and fellowship with him; from the Spirit of God, and from the people of God, and from any solid hope of eternal life: now these being called by grace, and brought to Christ under the drawings of the Father's love, shall come to his church, and join themselves to his people:

and build in the temple of the Lord;

upon the foundation Christ; and be useful in building up others, either by private conversation, or by public preaching the word; it is not said, they shall "build the temple of the Lord"; that is Christ's work; but "build in" it:

and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you;

that is, the Prophet Zechariah, who was sent to the Jews to declare these things to them; or, as the Targum adds, "to prophesy unto you": which they would fully know, and be assured of, when these things should have their accomplishment:

and [this] shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God;

not that the fulfilment of the above predictions depended upon their obedience; but when they should in the latter day obey the Gospel of Christ, or "the word of the Lord" their "God", as the Targum paraphrases it; then this would come to pass, that they should know that the prophet had his mission from the Lord.

As I stated earlier, Jesus came to finish Old Covenant business. He came to bring the New Covenant during the last 7 years. The context of Daniel's 70 weeks is verse 24: Old Covenant Jews and Jerusalem. Jesus brought His message to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.( Matt 15:24). He ministered for 3 and 1/2 years then was crucified. His disciples then continued with the message to the House Of Israel.(Matt 10:5). It was after the Disciples preached to the Jews in the last 3 and 1/2 years that ended the 70th week. Then the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles. It was probably after the stoning of Steven. (Acts 8:4).

The 7 years were also the time of putting the two sticks together (Ez. 37:17.) I believe this is what Paul refers to in Eph. 2:11-14.