What or who is predestinated?

Hello Saturn,

The C/A debate can be very heated as you know full well. Being that you think I have been harsh to your friend, please give input as to how to best handly this when it comes up again. Only for the fact that I am a Calvinist, I have been called a sissy boy, and a man that has more then one wife as well as other things I will not repete. Dale has been called a follower of ME!! Which is funny. This is based on the reason that we agree on one subject or 2. Using the same logic, Dale could have jump on you saying.."do you follow and worship Bob?. Yet Dale has taken a higher road then this and not attacked you as a person.

This has come from someone that does not even know me and I would guess does not know Dale. i have been told I worshipping a man, i'm of the devil, i follow a man, ...this same person has said I believe everything that Calvin wrote. I have been told, i'm going to hell. The person that says this, can not see my heart...has no idea if i have faith in God or not and can only go with what I claim. I claim Christ as my Lord. why would he say this? This has been said not one time, nor two times but many times. Now this is where you can help me. Being that all of this is a pure lie, how is the best way to handly this when he does it again?

Now it looks like someone is say Dale is on his way to hell. We will see. All Dale is asking is..."what do you mean?". We will wait till the other person replies before making a call...but it sure looks that way to me.

In the past my 1st post after being attacked at my person and ....I think, but not sure ..that this is the way Dale always posted as well after a attack,...has been...."why would you say this?".

A statement such as you just saw above comes out of the blue and I wish to know if there is something I did to mislead. This is followed by the same person saying..."think about it and maybe it will come to you". Now this does not help, for I would not ask if I knew. Then we have a full page on nothing but babbles..."why?...think about it...I don't know why....think about it.

So...in order that this not take place again someday, I'm asking you Saturn. How should I handly lies thrown at me? What better way should I answer...other then "what do you mean?".


Thanks for before hand for your input.

Saturn...I pray that Gods great love SHINE on you, and may He give you full understanding in all things.


To help get us back on the subject. I stand behind my 1st post on this tread. We should all be able to hold to the word "predestinated".

If fits well in both camps. The battle is over the meaning of the word election.

In Christ...James

 

Maybe post 166 on page 17 will refresh your memory...

 

The problem with this is that Paul defines what he means when he says, "those who love God" by the next phrase - "those who are the called according to His purpose." This passage supports not only predestination, but also effectual calling (the called according to His purpose; those whom He called, these He also justified) and perseverance of the saints (those whom He justified, these He also glorified).

 

calling

there is the external call of the preacher or missionary in the pulpit, and the internal call of the Holy Spirit on the heart. you need the internal call to be saved, but it is always accompanied by the external call. Paul is talking about the internal call.

 

Indeed...

With full support in John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
***********************

Now notice the details that some overlook.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Note:...Christ had COME..was in the world.. The World!! Is this the same world of John 3:16 or another world?...the World that He made....the World knew him not. Even the elect? The elect is part of the world. The elect are not born saved. The elect must have faith.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Note...in greater detail...Christ came unto His own ...his elect nation...and they would not have him. The nation turned Him down and said no thanks. Though this is talking about a nation, we can see a picture of the elect before the holy spirit showed them understanding, that they too received Him not.

Does any one remember a verse that says..."no one seeks after God?"

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Note: Who received Him? Not the world..they did not know him. Not the jews...they would not receive Him. The offer still stands. Whosoever will may come. Whosoever will that DOES come...it would be given them the power to become the sons of God. If they believed. But remember...the world did not know Him. His own nation did not knew him. So though Christ had come...mans sin nature did not know him.

So in short...The offer was in place..Christ had come...no one knew nor received him though He had come.

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
***********
Then how?

Note: This shows how the power of verse 12 was given.

born.....

the power comes from being born...

born not of blood....all men are born this way.

Born not because of our fathers will...meaning born from out fathers family...as in the jews.


Born not of OUR OWN WILL.....for we do not know him....remember?

but...born of Gods will.

Now...this is where election comes in.



In Christ...James

 

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Who is the all in these verses? If all means all, do these verses not do damage to "TULIP"?

 

...and as tech savvy as you are, you know how to navigate the BB to go to page 17 and post 166. There is no confusion.

 

Exactly. And the calling is part of a process that is limited to only a certain people, i.e., those He foreknew (knew beforehand intimately).

Those He Foreknew are the same ones He predestined, who are the same ones He called [according to His purpose], who are the same ones...etc.

Furthermore, we only love Him because He first loved us, which eliminates the possibility that He called anyone based on the fact that they love Him.

 

Hello Blammo,

Owens in his books, "The Death of Death in the Death of the Christ" a must read that addresses the atonement better then any other writer. This is a small clip from book 1, chapter 1. Enjoy...

Will you know the end wherefore, and the intention wherewith, Christ came into the world? Let us ask himself (who knew his own mind, as also all the secrets of his Father's bosom), and he will tell us that the "Son of man came to save that which was lost," Matt. 18:11,--to recover and save poor lost sinners; that was his intent and design, as is again asserted, Luke 19:10. Ask also his apostles, who know his mind, and they will tell you the same. So Paul, I Tim. 1:15, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." Now, if you will ask who these sinners are towards whom he hath this gracious intent and purpose, himself tells you, Matt. 20:28, that he came to "give his life a ransom for many;" in other places called us, believers, distinguished from the world: for be "gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father," Gal. 1:4. That was the will and intention of God, that he should give himself for us, that we might be saved, being separated from the world. They are his church: Eph. 5:25-27, "He loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish:" which last words express also the very aim and end of Christ in giving himself for any, even that they may be made fit for God, and brought nigh unto him;--the like whereof is also asserted, Tit 2:14, "He gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Thus clear, then, and apparent, is the intention and design of Christ and his Father in this great work, even what it was, and towards whom,-- namely, to save us, to deliver us from the evil world, to purge and wash us, to make us holy, zealous, fruitful in good works, to render us acceptable, and to bring us unto God; for through him "we have access into the grace wherein we stand Rom. 5:2.

II. The effect, also, and actual product of the work itself, or what is accomplished and fulfilled by the death, blood-shedding, or oblation of Jesus Christ, is no less clearly manifested, but is as fully, and very often more distinctly, expressed;--as, first, Reconciliation with God, by removing and slaying the enmity that was between him and us; for "when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son," Rom. 5:10. "God was in him reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them," 2 Cor. 5:19; yea, he hath "reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ," verse 18. And if you would know how this reconstruction was effected, the apostle will tell you that "he abolished in his flesh the enmity, the law of commandments consisting in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby," Eph. 2:l5, 16: so that "he is our peace," verse l4. Secondly, Justification, by taking away the guilt of sins, procuring remission and pardon of them, redeeming us from their power, with the curse and wrath due unto us for them; for "by his own blood he entered into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" Heb. 9:12. "He redeemed us from the curse, being made a curse for us," Gal. 3:13; "his own self bearing our sins in his own body on the tree," 1 Pet. 2:24. We have "all sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" but are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins" Rom. 3:23-25: for "in him we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins," Col. 1:14. Thirdly, Sanctification, by the purging away of the uncleanness and pollution of our sins, renewing in us the image of God, and supplying us with the graces of the Spirit of holiness: for "the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself to God, purgeth our consciences from dead works that we may serve the living God," Heb. 9:14; yea, "the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin," I John 1:7. "By himself he purged our sins," Heb. 1:3. To "sanctify the people with his own blood, he suffered without the gate," chap. 13:12. "He gave himself for the church to sanctify and cleanse it, that it should be holy and without blemish," Eph.5:25-27. Peculiarly amongst the graces of the Spirit, "it is given to us," in-behalf-of Christ "for Christ's sake, to believe on him," Phil 1:29; God "blessing us in him with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places," Eph. 1:3. Fourthly, Adoption, with that evangelical liberty and all those glorious privileges which appertain to the sons of God; for "God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons," Gal 4:4, 5. Fifthly, Neither do the effects of the death of Christ rest here; they leave us not until we are settled in heaven, in glory and immortality for ever. Our inheritance is a "purchased possession," Eph 1:14: "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance," Heb. 9:15. The sum of all is,--The death and blood-shedding of Jesus Christ hath wrought, and doth effectually procure, for all those that are concerned in it, eternal redemption, consisting in grace here and glory hereafter.

III. Thus full, clear, and evident are the expressions in the Scripture concerning the ends and effects of the death of Christ, that a man would think every one might run and read. But we must stay: among all things in Christian religion, there is scarce any thing more questioned than this, which seems to be a most fundamental principle. A spreading persuasion there is of a general ransom to be paid by Christ for all; that he died to redeem all and every one,--not only for many, his church, the elect of God, but for every one also of the posterity of Adam. Now, the masters of this opinion do see full well and easily, that if that be the end of the death of Christ which we have from the Scripture asserted, if those before recounted be the immediate fruits and products thereof, then one of these two things will necessarily follow:--that either, first, God and Christ failed of their end proposed, and did not accomplish that which they intended, the death of Christ being not a fitly-proportioned means for the attaining of that end (for any cause of failing cannot be assigned); which to assert seems to us blasphemously injurious to the wisdom, power, and perfection of God, as likewise derogatory to the worth and value of the death of Christ;--or else, that all men, all the posterity of Adam, must be saved, purged, sanctified, and glorified; which surely they will not maintain, at least the Scripture and the woeful experience of millions will not allow. Wherefore, to cast a tolerable color upon their persuasion, they must and do deny that God or his Son had any such absolute aim or end in the death or blood-shedding of Jesus Christ, or that any such thing was immediately procured and purchased by it, as we before recounted; but that God intended nothing, neither was any thing effected by Christ,--that no benefit ariseth to any immediately by his death but what is common to all and every soul, though never so cursedly unbelieving here and eternally damned hereafter, until an act of some, not procured for them by Christ, (for if it were, why have they it not all alike?) to wit, faith, do distinguish them from others. Now, this seeming to me to enervate the virtue, value, fruits and effects of the satisfaction and death of Christ,--serving, besides,for a basis and foundation to a dangerous, uncomfortable, erroneous persuasion-I shall, by the Lord's assistance, declare what the Scripture holds out in both these things, both that assertion which is intended to be proved, and that which is brought for the proof thereof; desiring the Lord by his Spirit to lead us into all truth, to give us understanding in all things, and if any one be otherwise minded, to reveal that also unto him.

 

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The book that you just cut and pasted from didn't really answer my question. The only thing I got out of it was that the author seems to think "all" means "us". Does not 1 John 2:2 disprove "limited atonement"?

 

Hello Blammo,

You are right. I nor Owens address your verse. I will get to that. I needed to lay gound work 1st. Before I address your verses, you posted this new verse 1 john 2:2 and claims it disproves "limited atonement". If this is the case as you say, would it be fair to say that you do not think atonement was limited?


In Christ...James

 

Yes, as I understand your question, I believe that Jesus Christ died for the the sins of the whole world. The only thing a person will go to hell for is unbelief.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

Hello Blammo,

This is a view that many hold. 1st, let me say I in small degree do agree with you on this statment.."The only thing a person will go to hell for is unbelief". Faith in God as your own means of salvation is the only thing that saves all men, both now and in OT times. But lets stay with that as we share our views.

Why does man need saved? To make this a bit shorter. You said saved from hell.

Is it not better said.. (and this is why i said small degee above)..that if we place our faith in Christ for salvation, we are saved from our sins...and thereby are not damned to go to hell? I do not want to put words in your mouth, but is it not that we are saved from our sins that place us in hell, and not just saved from hell? Would you agree, or disagree?

 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

What is the opposite of Belief?