Not under Law --Under Grace!

God "defines atonement" in Lev 16 without even having to go to the dictionary as it turns out.

But IF we were free to IGNORE what God has said (which DHK and others feel is the right thing to do with it comes to God's Word in Lev 16) -- THEN turning to the dictionary INSTEAD we find the definition to be far more in line with the "ATONING SACRIFICE" of 1john 2:2 full and complete at the cross. (the typical Calvinist rule of redefining terms when scripture does not work for them -- applied here).

In that case -- using the dictionary "instead" then atonement was completed at the cross.

But the argument you make in your comments seems to push the argument that this can not be all there is to the term - since repentance is Still being required -- and you are right of course. The term as seen in Lev 16 refers to an entire PROCESS that is completed when BOTH the work of christ as the LAMB of God AND the work of Christ as our High Priest (Heb 8-10) is completed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

A man is a man is a man. You cannot make a false dichotomy by splitting man into outward and inward man. You refer to the resurrection, and certainly our "outward man" or flesh will rise again. But will it rise without the spirit, without the soul? Will it be just a glorified corpse without any life in it at all? You cannot dissect inward from outward. This temporal fleshly body that we have must always house that inward spirit and mind which causes the body to sin. The body does not sin in and of itself. The mind tells it what to do. Jesus said:
"Out of the heart (the inward man) proceeds adulteries, murders, fornications, etc." The heart, the mind, causes the body to act. It is not the body that is intrinsically evil; it is the mind infected with the sinful nature passed down to us by Adam.

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has nothing to do with our choosing to sin. Some day the resurrection will take place. That also has nothing to do with our choosing to sin.

Again, your false dichotomy cannot work. You cannot dissect the body and spirit, and say that one sins and the other does not. Jesus never said that it was just the inward man that was born again. He told Nicodemus: You must be born again. He did not say a part of Nicodemus, he was addressing Nicodemus as a whole person, not just a part. We don't divide people up.
My life, both on the inside and on the outside began to change the day that I was born again. Being born again affects the entire person, not just a part of him. The Holy Spirit comes and dwells within. But the person provides his body as the temple of God. (1Cor. 6:19,20)

Paul teaches no such thing. In fact he teaches that sin dwells in him. He describes the great battle within--the flesh warring against the spirit. But you have falsely created a dichotomy that doesn't exist. You say: "So we see that it is in the outward that sin abounds." This is ridiculous. It is like saying that sin abounds in a corpse. Go to the cemetary and dig up all the dead bodies and there you will find sin. Is this right? Is that where sin is? It is in flesh, bones and "meat". This flesh is sin, as you call it. That is about the weirdest view of sin that I have ever heard.
Jesus taught that sin is from within--coming from within, coming from the heart--the inward man. It is not the outward man. He taught directly against that teaching, and told the Pharisees that they were hypocrites for teaching such doctrines themselves.

Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
--The outward man is not sinful. This is the teaching of Jesus.

Mark 7:20-23 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

The inward man is evil; not the outward man. This is the teaching of Jesus.
It is the inward man that controls what the outward man does.
And the inward man does sin, even the inward man of a believer, a born again Christian. He that says that he has no sin, even of a born again Christian makes Christ a liar.

Don't you go blaming your sin on God. That is akiin to blasphemy. You choose to sin, and you do it everyday, all the time. You can't live without sin, your sin. You may be called a saint in God's eyes, but you are still a sinner--a sinner saved by grace. We are called sinners for a reason. We sin. We are not perfect. Gal.3:10 and James 2:10 are just as true today as they were generations ago and they apply to you as much as they do to anyone else.
Grieve not the Holy Spirit, it says in Ephesians. If that command is there, then obviously it is possible for you to grieve the Holy Spirit that dwells in you. Just becasue the Holy Spirit dwells in you doesn't mean that you won't sin. You are pinning your sin on God. That is blasphemy.

Who made you the arbiter that adultery is a sin unto death? From where in the Scripture do you get that? From that theology I guess that David would be in Hell today, along with the woman caught in adultery that Jesus forgave.
The fact is that Jesus forgives.
He forgives all sin, any sin, and there is no sin that is too great for him that He cannot forgive. He saves to the uttermost--that is to the very extreme.

Too many people are confused about "a sin unto death."
The death being spoken of is physical death.
The sin is not any specific sin that is mentioned, but perhaps a sinful lifestyle that is bringing shame to the name of Christ.
The subject of the one committing the sin, is a brother--that is a believer, one who is born again.
It is possible that if a believer carries on in a lifestyle that brings shame to the name of Christ, that God will cut him off physically. He will bring about circumstances that will cause his death. Other Scripture that harmonize with this is the chastening hand of God described in Heb.12. The sin of Annanias and Sapphira that resulted in death, and the abuse of the Lord's Supper by the Corinthian believers that resulted in death (see 1Cor.11:30).
"For this cause some among you are sick, and weak, and some of you sleep" (are dead).
God judges sin. Any sin, if one persists in it long enough, can be a sin unto death.

 

There are many homosexuals who make a profession of faith and may not practice they act again, but entertain the thought in the heart.

Will they be in heaven?

Many may not murder, but entertain the thoughts in their heart.

Many do not commit adultery outwardly, but the heart enertains those sins often.

Will these be in heaven?

What if any of the above were to be faithful church members, tithe, get baptized, go on visitations, serve in the church for many years, etc., but the day they died, fell back into that sin that had been hidden in their heart along?

 

from Things Hard To Be Understood

 

same

That was absolutly beautiful, Claudia.

God bless,

Mike

 

same

Brother Bob,

We who are born again do not live with an overflow of unbridled and joyful sin. Many of us used to, but not now. We are new now, with new wants and desires. To say that it literally means we never will sin is just crazy. Not only does our experience prove that it cant mean that, the scriptures themselves prove that it cant mean that...

"If anyone say he does not sin, he makes God a liar".

And praise God for that. The wicked one "touches us not" in that he will never see us in hell. We are secure in Gods love.

God bless

Mike

 

same

Amy,

It appears that I unknowingly gave somewhat of an answer to your question in my response there to Bob. :thumbs:

At the time I yet yet to read your post but I have since.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

GE:
We are neither "forgiven", nor, "atoned", "automatically", ever.
To find our sins forgiven, is to be atoned for our sins for. 'Forgiveness', 'atonement', 'reconciliation', 'justified' - all are different aspects of the greater whole of salvation. Not one may be attributed to man - it all comes from God and is returned to God, by God, through grace, through faith, in Jesus Christ. "I am the Alfa and the Omega, the Beginning and the End". Mark these words: "Who is the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD". It speaks of more than the natural creation - it speaks of God's spiritual and new creation - His work of GRACE!
O but man is so haughty, he will not give God all the credit. His will overrides God's - conditions God. Man handles God, not vice versa!

 

HELEN:
"... because atonement is a legal thing -- justification. Christ did that once and for all for ALL men."

GE:
'atonement is -- justification'. Yes, and no. First, neither is purely 'objective' - totally outside ourselves. Whom God atones and justifies, He finishes His work WITH. There is not a man saved, but is saved inwardly and simultaneously justified and reconciled with God. If Jesus hasn't made abode in one's heart, He has not yet even met that man nor knows him. From this truth it is obvious you make the mistake that Christ atoned and justified "ALL men". By far the majority of the living walk as prove of what I say.

Then Paul says in usual words that who God has atoned, He has justified and has saved and reconciled -- fully, once for all, through Christ in Christ. The subject-matter itself of it leaves no doubt. Once again, it shows you're wrong in presuming God atoned and justified all men.

God saves whom He had chosen from before the creation -- those who were contained in Christ from eternity. That's grace, free grace. It leaves man without claim, title, right, or pretense. If anything would be retained to the glory of man - like a free choice or will - it would not be God's salvation, but the false.

Lastly,
"... atonement ... justification. Christ did once and for all ..." Absolutely! But never forget, he died for our sins, but rose for our justification as Paul said. THERE IS NO ATONEMENT, NO JUSTIFICATION, NO RECONCILIATION, but the ultimate and only: that by Christ rising from the dead, presenting His LIFE before LORD God the only propitiation for sin. Sacrifice without its presentation LIVE, is heathendom ... as heathen as Roman Catholicism has remained throughout its heresy of redemption by death and blood even were it that of Jesus Christ. "If Christ rose not from the dead you are in your sin still", and His atonement, faithless fear-instilment merely: a religion of works!

 

GE:
Thank you Mike, Amen!

 

DHK:
"...this is my understand of God’s Holy word. I didn’t receive this overnight but I have been at this for going on 35 years. I have given my life to the Lord and His word. I will be held accountable for what I have just posted but I am willing to die on it. God Bless and Amen,"

GE:
This is the confession of a true Christian. God be with you!

 

BobRyan:
"...the "ATONING SACRIFICE" of 1john 2:2 full and complete at the cross. (the typical Calvinist rule of redefining terms when scripture does not work for them -- applied here).
"

GE:
You have not the faintest idea what you're talking - as usual on this subject. The "ATONING SACRIFICE" of 1John 2:2 was full and complete at the cross. "Finished", said Jesus - not "the typical Calvinist rule".
It is you people who come along ane say, no, atonement wasn't finished then, buthave not even started yet! Because it is you who claim atonement only started after Jesus "went up into the air" forty days after his resurrection. And it is you who maintain 'final atonement' only started after 1844.
But the typical Calvinist rule of defining atonement is that atonement in the sense of final atonement and final reconciliation and final and complete salvation, did not stop with Jesus when He died, but in that He rose from the dead being glorified and exalted - therein and thereby being raised from the dead. THEN, and THERE, right there from the grave of Joseph of Arimathea, "IN, raising Jesus, IN, the glory of the Father"! That is Calvinism you have never dreamed of, what have become the authority to judge.

 

BobRyan:
"...the "ATONING SACRIFICE" of 1john 2:2 full and complete at the cross. (the typical Calvinist rule of redefining terms when scripture does not work for them -- applied here).
"

That is my point -- re-read the post.

But my argument about standard Calvinist-downsizing of scripture and "redefinition of terms" is seen to be true as we observe that in Lev 16 the PROCESS of ATONEMENT goes BEYOND the "Atoning Sacrifice" itself since it ALSO includes the work of Christ as High Priest seen in Heb 8-10.

The point has been made repeatedly.

It is just not that hard to get. When Calvinists (4 and 5 pointers primarily have a problem here) embrace this point of scripture instead of dodging it - I will not have this instant reference to Lev 16 to debunk their redefinitions that posit against the Word of Scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

(The carnal mind)
2 Corinthians, chapter 4

"16": For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Romans, chapter 7
"21": I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

"22": For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

"23": But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

"24": O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

"25": I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin

[Sure glad Paul knew more about what was born again than you do and there is an inward man and a outward man. The way you believe mean that which is born again has to die and Jesus said I am the bread of life that a man may eat thereof and never die.]

It has every thing to do with it for if you will read carefully you will see the word "also" which means something has already been delivered. Also, means something has already been delivered.

Romans, chapter 8

"21": Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Another scripture to support that is:

Romans, chapter 8

"11": But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[Your belief is that which is "born again" really has not been born again.]

[Plainly tell you that the Holy Spirit dwells within, the part you say sins.

Paul made it plain that it was his flesh and the members of his flesh that sinned and not the inward part. You are saying that which is where Christ dwelleth sins.]

Romans, chapter 7
"22": For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

"23": But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[All you do is make statements, you don’t explain the scriptures at all.]

Romans, chapter 8
"23": And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

[You don’t seem to realize there is a separation of the inward man and outward man at death. The inward part goes to be with Christ until the resurrection when the outward part shall be delivered also, unto the glorious liberties of God.]

[You don’t even know that the flesh has a carnal mind and the inward man has a spiritual mind and we are not of them that walk after the flesh. You get your scriptures to the wrong man.]

It is not me who is saying the inward part sins where the Holy Spirit is, it is you that says it is the inward part where the Holy Spirit of God dwells that sins.

Romans, chapter 8
"11": But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[If you don’t think "adultery" without repentance is a sin unto death then if you are guilty of adultery when you see the death angel coming you will find out "first hand", when you stand before the Great White Throne of Judgement. If the woman at the well went back to adultery, she sinned unto death according to scriptures if she never repented before death.

Finally if it is the outward man that is "born again", then how come we have to die?

I pray for you.

 

You need to consider that the part that is sinning has to die the natural death. The part that has been "born again" shall never die. After you figure that out then you will come to understand what Paul was saying about His delight after the Law of the Inward man and not the flesh.

 

If they die in that condition they will be with Satan.
Don't make any difference how many tithes they paid.

 

These scriptures applied to the part that is "born again are not hard to understand but are very good scriptures GE. DHK don't have an answer for them.

 

Amen, Brother Bob

And that is my point. One who commits willfull sin just prior to death and never repents proved himself to have had that in his or her heart all along. The true nature of the pig, the dog, the tree bearing the fruit.

Can a fig tree bear olives?