My experience at a revival - Baptism of Holy Spirit? Please Help!

From 1 Corinthians 14...


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; forhe who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare himself for battle? [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:21 In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," F44 says the Lord. [/FONT]

14:22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.



These passages make clear that the Spiritual gift of tongues sometimes is indeed an unknown language, that should be interpreted.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

I have no objection to D28 as I know he stands very well with sound doctrines.
The Baptism of Holy Spirit is very clear when we notice our life styles are changing to conform to teachings of Jesus Christ, and our lives are righteous and holy.
Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins and guilt, and He shows our problems with worldly desires and sinful lusts, gives us the wonderful vision that we can still live the successful and joyful life while we live the holy life, giving the conviction that all of our sins were forgiven at the Cross.
When we live the life faithful to the Lord, we will enjoy the fullness of the Holy Spirit.
One day I asked someone to interpret the prayer by unknown tongues, then the interpreter said " Jesus loves you, Jesus loves you, Jesus loves you" That was all. Does it enhance our belief?

 

Tongues should be interpreted, yes... I agree. But the babbling that is heard in many churches is not a known tongue.

It may be a tongue from God, but if it is, it is not interpreted correctly.

The unknown tongue is only mentioned 6 times in the New Testament. All 6 times are in 1 Corinthians 14. The first instance is verse 2 that says when man speaks in an unknown tongue, he speaks not unto man but unto God.

Now, if the unknown tongue is spoken to God, shouldn't the interpretation be from man to God? Think about it.

If an Italian came to your church to speak, and his interpreter with him, wouldn't the interpreter tell you what the Italian was saying? or would he tell you his own words?

The unknown tongue is a language spoken to God and the interpretation should be to God or it is not the correct interpretation given.

It should be something along the lines of 'We thank you, Father...' not, 'Thus saith the Lord God...'

 

Oh boy....

I'm really afraid that Rando didn't do himself a favor coming here with this question. Why don't you directly beat him over the head and tell him that ONLY baptists know the whole truth and all others are wrong?
I think this is a joke. It's not funny to come up with absolutely silly replies like "maybe it is a stroke" or "the jerk pinched you in the arm". This isn't funny!
Unless you've already made the decision to simply assume that you know everything and as long as you are open and seeking these questions keep you busy and they also confuse you but unless most of you guys here there are people out there which do not simply assume that they know everything! This is so getting on my nerves, this whole arrogant behavior. As if all pentecostals are totally dumb and cannot read their bible. As if it was that easy to determine if tongues still exist or not. It is not!
Has anyone of you maybe ever read the verse where Paul says that when he prays in tongues then he is exchanging secrets with God? This is not the same as speaking in tongues in public but you guys simply do not even pay attention to this. I have never read a really plausible reply to this which explains why this prayer language should not exist anymore. Paul himself said he wishes that the others would pray in tongues as much as he does and you guys say that this doesn't exist anymore? Why? Obviously it was good. Why should God have taken it away?
But I don't even expect plausible answers because once you've made the decision to think that you know everything and that everybody who disagrees with you is simply wrong you have already established your whole theology and nobody here will change his opinion. Just take a look at all the endless debates here. Everybody has his own opinion and everybody thinks he is right while the others are wrong. This is such a turn-off. :BangHead:
I rather admit that I have no clue but I won't do as if I know it all. I know nothing.

 

xdx,

There are tongues (dialect, languages) and there is the unknown tongue.

When Paul said he would that all spoke in tongues, he was not speaking of the unknown tongue.

In the Pentecostal church, they want all to speak in an unknown tongue that they try to interpret as a message from God to man while Paul clearly stated that it was a message to God from man.

When the babbling in the Pentecostal Churches is given, it is always the same babbling, and yet more than one interpretation.

I know a man who in his church repeats one single syllable over and over every service. The pastor interprets , and guess what??... The interpretations are always different but always a message from God.

Well, something is not right with that picture.

 

I agree with you. I know the same phenomenon where people always repeat the same stuff over and over again. This also seems strange to me.
But I have also heard christians pray in tongues, just praying without any interpretation or claim that this is from God, and it really sounded fluent like a language. What about these cases? I cannot simply say that they can not be genuine.
But I also fear that many want to be able to pray in tongues and then they simply copy their pastor or others without being aware of it. Once you've heard somebody babble something in an unknown tongue it's not hard to simply copy his style wether you're aware of it or not. I couldn't do this. If I was to speak in tongues it would have to sound genuine because otherwise I would think that I'm just making this up. I don't think that I could speak in tongues because I'm too sceptical. I think tongues is rather for people which simply do it but then again some may simply be faking it without being aware of it.

 

But I have also heard christians pray in tongues, just praying without any interpretation or claim that this is from God, and it really sounded fluent like a language. What about these cases? I cannot simply say that they can not be genuine.

Was there more than one praying in this tongue? Was there an interpreter present? If not, the tongue should not have been spoken.

But, as verse 2 says:

Paul said the unknown tongue is to God. Since it is to God, the interpretation given should be to God.

Paul ends this chapter with these words:

Are things truly in order when a tongue to God from man is interpreted as being from God to man

 

Good post xdx~ :applause: and Amen!

BTW, Rando the experiance you had sound simular as to what my sister had during praise and worship. She said as she lifted her hands it was as if the Lord reached down and grabbed her hands and she said her arms began to shake and tingle. She said she tried but couldn't get them down. Finally she told the Lord she couldn't take much more and just that quick she was able to put her arms down. BTW, She is not one to make up things.

 

I have never read anything in the NT regarding tongues where a person had some sort of physical reaction. Even on the day of Pentacost, when the greatest manifestation of tongues occured, ever, there was no one falling down or shaking or tingling. Tongues were for the glorification of God and the edification of the church. A sign to unbelievers. Period. This is another attempt of the devil to lure people away from the true worship of God to a feel good experience which is completely self-centered.

I have been in Pentacostal churches and experienced 'tongues'. It is fake and brought on simply by emotion and deception and pressure to be 'like' the other people babbling around you.

The first church I went to after being saved was Pentacostal. It was a terrible experience and God took me out it. Glory to God!

When the Holy Spirit moves you, you will know it. There is no guesswork, for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. (1 Cor. 14:33)

 

Rando, I think your mistake was coming to a Baptist board with your question. Many of these folks have completely excluded the Holy Spirit as a dynamic force in their faith because they have allowed their own tradition, and the limits of their own means of interpreting scripture, to blind them to reality. How can you even interpret scripture without the dynamic power of the Spirit's illumination?

"I came to you in weakness--timid and trembling. And my message and my preaching were very plain. Rather than using clever and persuasive speeches, I relied only on the power of the Holy Spirit. I did this so you would not trust not in human wisdom but in the power of God." I Corinthians 2:3-5 NLT

That's the apostle Paul speaking. There is far too much interpreting of scripture on this board that doesn't rely on the power of the Holy Spirit. It's pretty much a get out your King James Bible, go verse by verse and make a rule and an application based on each verse. That's nothing more than reasoning, and it prevents you from seeing the whole picture. The scripture was not written with thoughts organized "verse by verse." Each book has a clear theme and message that applied to its original audience and the issues they were dealing with. The Spirit helped the church collect a canon that would include a wide variety of applications as well as the four gospel accounts that recorded what Jesus preached and taught. It takes the same Spirit to illuminate that canon so that believers get a full picture of the theme and context, and can interpret and apply the principles and teachings so that they are relevant and workable in the setting to which they are to be applied.

You're confused, not because the Holy Spirit has caused the confusion, but because you've not been taught correctly about the work of the Holy Spirit. Some Pentecostals and Charismatics go to extremes, and over-emphasize some aspects of the Spirit's work, just about as much as Baptists and other evangelicals de-emphasize the spirit and rely on convoluted literalist interpretations of scripture passages to the exclusion of any Spiritual insight at all. The Spirit is that part of the Trinity which indwells and interacts with the spirit of human beings. Supressing it is just as wrong as trying to work it up on your own.

I'd say that you need to consider the fact that this particular incident was indeed something that the Holy Spirit generated to attract your attention in His direction and you need to consider the fact that God is leading you toward something. Be open to whatever that might be.

 

Rando,

Oh, I've heard many many testimonies of that sort. I heard someones testimony once where she was in a supermarket doing some shopping and was very softly praising God, almost a whisper. She said that she just started speaking in another language that she had never learned. It was a complete surprise to her.

1st of all, its a scripturally identified gift of the Spirit. In adition, it will lead to a heightened sense of love and worship of and towards God. And if there is an interpretation in a gathered assembly the interpretation will be for the edification of the fellowship.

God bless,

Mike

 

Again, Paul writes that if one speaks in an unknown tongue, there is to be an interpreter present. If no interpreter is present, silence is to be observed.

 

Jack Matthews:

I think you are making judgements that you are not qualified to make. You are wrong to say that just because someone believes tongues have ceased that they have excluded the Holy Spirit. I for one believe in the awesome power of the Holy Spirit. I have experienced the Holy Spirit's work in my life many times. All that I have learned from Bible study was taught to me by the Holy Spirit. Paul
said tongues was the least of the spiritual gifts. The gift was abused in Paul's day and he had to set rules for it's use. Those rules are ignored in todays church.
It's baffling to me that missionaries still have to learn foreign languages in order to carry the gospel to other nations. Even pentacostals have to learn foreign languages. Why is that if tongues are still in use today?

 

His Blood,

No neccesarily. Only if it is a message specifically given to the church. That admonition has nothing to do with people praying in tongues to God using a personal prayer language.

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him. However, in the Spirit he speaks mysteries. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exortation and comfort to men. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied."

Clearly, the scriptures here are speaking favorably of both...the personal prayer language for personal edification, and the other for the edification of the body...but saying that one is more profitable for the entire assembly.

God bless,

Mike

 

D28,

How can you say 'Not necessarily'? The Word of God clearly tells us to be silent if there is no interpreter present.

And the Bible also clearly says that the unknown tongue is not to man but to God. The unknown tongue is not a sign for the church, but the unbeliever.

It is a language spoken to God, yet some try to interpret it to be to man. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

His Blood,

Because of what the scriptures teach. In 1 Cor chapter 14 there are several different applications of tongues being discussed. Not just one. Personal prayer is discussed. A message in tongues to an assembly with no interpretation is discussed. A message WITH interpretation is discussed. ALL of these applications are adressed...

"[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for F43 he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare himself for battle? [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. [/FONT]14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. "

As I said before, I completly agree that if someone gives a word to the body in tongues, it should be interpreted. But if someone in the assembly is not giving a message to the church, but is only speaking to God in a heavenly prayer language, as the scripture supports...


"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God"

...then we are to "not forbid" that.



Mike

 

"What shall we say brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God." I Cor. 14:26-28 NIV

Questions--

1. When your church gets together for worship, does everyone have a leadership role in it, that falls into one of these categories? And we're not just talking about singing the hymns, this isn't talking about just singing along, it's talking about having a hymn, which implies originating one, and leading it. If everyone in your church isn't doing one of these five things during worship, you're either out of scriptural compliance, or there must be another acceptable application of these verses.

2. Isn't speaking to God prayer? So, if a person is gifted with tongues, and there isn't an interpreter present, aren't they speaking mysteries to God, the Spirit is taking over for them and they are praying in a private prayer language?

3. There isn't a scripture anywhere in the New Testament that supports the doctrine of cessation. But there is I Corinthians 14:39-40, Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. So what would you do if there was someone gifted with tongues in your service, and there was an interpreter present?

Having said that, the issue here wasn't tongues, but an individual named Rando who wondered whether a physical experience he had was related to the experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit during a revival service he had attended. I've not seen any evidence that his experience could not have been the result of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit is certainly powerful enough to cause a physical reaction. In John 18, when Jesus was arrested, and the guards said they were looking for Jesus of Nazareth, he spoke the words "I am he" and the guards fell to the ground. When Annanias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit, they fell down dead. There are many instances of healings, and other miraculous signs and wonders associated with the movement of the Holy Spirit. Look what happened when Phillip preached in Samaria. When the laying on of hands brought the Holy Spirit to the believers there, something visible must have happened to convince Simon the Sorcerer that he could receive the power from Peter and John. And I just can't find that verse anywhere that says, "But this is only going to last until the scripture is canonized, and then it will cease because you will have written words and won't need the miracles, signs and wonders any more."

Rando, consider this. God is using his Holy Spirit to speak to you. Listen to what he is saying.

 

When one speaks in tongues, it is to an assembly, but if there be no interpreter present, it only brings confusion and not understanding.

Paul states emphatically that if an interpreter is not present when tongues are spoken then one is to remain silent.

But known dialect is not the only tongues mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14.

Six verses in that chapter reveal that there is an unknown tongue. It is not a language that is for man, it is a language to God (v. 2).

The babbling in churches today that people seem to thinks is the unknown tongue Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 14 could be the unknown tongue... I will not say for certain it is not. But, if it is, then the interpretation is wrong. The interpretation should reflect a prayer or communication to God since the unknown tongue is to God.

If you and I and Amy G were in a room together and I spoke in German and Amy interpreted what I said, would she speak to you what I said, or someone else? Biblically, the unknown tongue because it is spoken to God, when interpreted as being to God and not to man.

 

But what about praying in tongues only to GOD?