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Baptists Many Years Ago

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by rufus, Apr 4, 2007.

  1. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    Please review post #39 by rufus.

    According to the New Testament, the Church is Local Bodies of baptizied believers cooperating to carry out the Lord's commission.

    The attempt to read "Universal Theory" into the many pertinent passages in the NT, seems like eisegesis rather than exegesis. Seems like an ecclesiological pressuppostion is being used to intepret the word "church."

    I have analyzed, examined, turned inside and outside, every passage in the NT, and I still can't SEE the Universal Church which is touted by so many today.

    Bro. Tom has well said that the Universal Church serves NO purpose, like the Local Church does.

    I do appreciate all the dialogue on this issue. I hope more light than heat is being generated.

    :thumbs:
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes and I hope this is an area where we can agree to disagree as brethren.

    I sincerely appreciate the fact that this was kept on a basis of interpretation of Scripture and did not turn into an ad hominem debate.


    HankD
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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  4. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    No one has really answered that post #39, as far as I know.

    But thanks for noticing it.

    :thumbs:
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Here is another thing the Universal Church can't do:

    It cannot be destroyed by humans. No human really
    knows exactly who is and who isn't a member.
    So no person can kill them all or get rid of them all.

    By contrast one can 'kill out' a local church: getting
    rid of (for awile) all the local members.
     
    #105 Ed Edwards, Apr 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2007
  6. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    You are confusing me brother about what you believe... you said,
    According to the New Testament, the Church is Local Bodies of baptizied believers cooperating to carry out the Lord's commission.

    This describes what I would call the universal church.. notice you capitalized "Church".

    Then you seem to disagree with your statement.. I probably am reading something wrong... can you help me out by explaining what you meant by the above statement.
     
  7. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I, too appreciate the spirit of the discussion. It has been reasoned and civil.

    Dull, isn't it? But believe me, given the heat in other threads, I can handle dull.
     
  8. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Matt 16:18
    Matt 18:17
    Acts 5:11
    Acts 7:38
    Acts 8:1
    Acts 8:3
    Acts 9:31
    Acts 11:22
    Acts 11:26
    Acts 12:1
    Acts 12:5
    Acts 13:1
    Acts 14:23
    Acts 14:27
    Acts 15:3, 4
    Acts 15:22
    Acts 15:41
    Acts 16:5
    Acts 18:22
    Acts 19:32
    Acts 19:39, 40
    Acts 20:17
    Acts 20:28
    Roma 16:1
    Roma 16:4, 5
    Roma 16:16
    Roma 16:23
    1Cor 1:2
    1Cor 4:17
    1Cor 6:4
    1Cor 7:17
    1Cor 10:32
    1Cor 11:16
    1Cor 11:18
    1Cor 11:22
    1Cor 12:28
    1Cor 14:4, 5
    1Cor 14:12
    1Cor 14:19
    1Cor 14:23
    1Cor 14:28
    1Cor 14:33-35
    1Cor 15:9
    1Cor 16:1
    1Cor 16:19
    2Cor 1:1
    2Cor 8:1
    2Cor 8:18,19
    2Cor 8:23,24
    2Cor 11:8
    2Cor 11:28
    2Cor 12:13
    Gala 1:2
    Gala 1:13
    Gala 1:22
    Ephe 1:22
    Ephe 3:10
    Ephe 3:21
    Ephe 5:23-25
    Ephe 5:27
    Ephe 5:29
    Ephe 5:32
    Phil 3:6
    Phil 4:15
    Colo 1:18
    Colo 1:24
    Colo 4:15, 16
    1The 1:1
    1The 2:14
    2The 1:1
    2The 1:4
    1Tim 3:5
    1Tim 3:15
    1Tim 5:16
    Phle 1:2
    Hebr 2:12
    Hebr 12:23
    Jame 5:14
    3Joh 1:6
    3Joh 1:9, 10
    Reve 1:4
    Reve 1:11
    Reve 1:20
    Reve 2:1
    Reve 2:7, 8
    Reve 2:11, 12
    Reve 2:17, 18
    Reve 2:23
    Reve 2:29
    Reve 3:1
    Reve 3:6, 7
    Reve 3:13, 14
    Reve 3:22
    Reve 22:16
     
  9. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    1. Brother, I fail to see how a non-existent entity can be destroyed.

    2. And I will NOT entertain the idea that Jesus was a liar when He said "the gates of hell shall not prevail against" the church. Thus the local church has known perpetuity since He started her.
     
  10. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    I'm sorry for the confusion brother.

    The word "Church" is generic or institutional, just like the word "lion," or "family" when used generally.

    It denotes a kind of thing. And in this case, it denotes local bodies or local assemblies. The church at Corinth, etc.

    That's the only kind of church the NT speaks of - local assemblies of water immersed believers working singly and cooperating together to carry out the Lord's orders.
     
  11. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    gb93433

    Thanks for posting all those verses substantiating the local church theory. Your effort is appreciated.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Matthew 16:18 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And I say also vnto thee, that thou art Peter,
    and vpon this rocke I will build
    my Church: and the gates of hell
    shall not preuaile against it.


    In the fall of 1981, I went to a Baptist Church
    in the Southern part of the Seattle metro.
    The preacher gave everybody a penny (ONE CENT)
    and preaced a short sermon about how
    we Christians are ONE SENT. Then about 11:30PM
    he invited everybody not a member to leave
    (including me). The church was in a business meeting
    to disband. The property went into the coffers
    of the mortgage company: a local trust belonging to
    local Southern Baptist churches.

    This local church didn't prevail in it's attack
    against the gates of hell. While there may be some
    local churches that pravail in the assault of the
    gates of hell, this local church didnt.

    The above scripture is a proof text of the Universal Church:
    the Body of Christ & the Bride of the Messiah.
     
  13. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Let me brainstorm a bit about the "gates of hell."

    Gates do not attack. Gates are for defense. The church Jesus founded during his earthly ministry--and the others which followed, each attacked the gates of hell by carrying out the orders of the Head, who later gave the Great Commission.

    Each soul that God saves represents a victory over Satan, and keeps them from going through the gates of hell. The gates did not prevail.

    I think we can also allow for some symbolism here. Are there literally gates? Did Jesus use a metaphor that his disciples understood, but we may not?

    Either way, I don't think any local congregation is guaranteed perpetual existence, and the demise of one church does not translate into defeat at the gates of hell. Jesus himself threatened to remove the "candlestick" and put some of those churches in Asia Minor out of business. The future of any congregation is in God's hands, not ours, and certainly not the gates of hell.

    The argument that the shutting down of a local church is proof of the existence of a Universal Church is not convincing. To me at least.
     
  14. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    If you look up those verses you will see the same word is used for a local church and Christ's church.

    Christ's church is referred to as the bride of Christ but some local churches are used by Satan. Just take a look at Rev. 2&3

    There is a huge difference between Christ's bride and a number of local churches.
     
  15. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    The church grows most under persecution.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    the gates of Hell

    Matthew 16:18 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And I say also vnto thee, that thou art Peter,
    and vpon this rocke I will build
    my Church: and the gates of hell
    shall not preuaile against it.

    THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
    1991-1992 Edition [Tyndale house, 1990] (Page 309):

    (Karakorum, Mongolia?)

    In 1095, the first Crusade of Europe against
    the rising Musslemen starts.
    The Crusades last a couple or three hunderd years.

    Meanwhile, the Catholic Apostolic Church
    of the East all but disappears under the onslaut
    of the Muslim in the southwest and the
    Mongol Horde in the East.

    Another proof that local churches fade away;
    but the Universal Church (the Body of Christ,
    the Bride of the Messiah) shall smash the Literal
    gates of hell.

     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    From post #39:
    The local Chuch CANNOT:

    1. be a Body for the CHRIST
    2. be a Bride for the Messiah
    3. save anybody
    4. find hell

    From post #39:
    This conclusion is illogical: there is a
    universal church consisting of all the believers since
    Pentecost. If it isn't physical, then it is spiritual.
     
  18. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    I believe Matthew 18:15-20 would disprove your interpretative conclusion, good brother.

    Also, Paul referred to the church at Corinth as "a body of Christ" (1 Cor. 12:27). As far as the "bride of Christ" one need look no further than the letter to Ephesus to see what Paul says.

    Brother, I don't recall anyone here saying that the church "saves" anyone. Only Jesus saves!

    But thank you for your comments.
     
  19. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    But brother I have looked up all those verses, and exegeted them in context, and I find nothing about a Universal Church therein. I do not believe there to be a difference between local churches and "Christ's church."
     
  20. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    The Baptism with the Spirit Thread is so very connected to this issue that I'm surprised at the few responses there and the many objections here.

    I hope everyone understands the connection and the implications.

    :thumbs:
     
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