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Faith Alone Not Works

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by DavidsonBap, Dec 7, 2005.

  1. DavidsonBap

    DavidsonBap New Member

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    Well I guess I understand. You know though, Jesus said something that still gets me confused.
    Mt. 25:'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

    So if we don't not feed the poor yet believe are we saved? I guess you are saying works come naturally after one is saved. But what if you decide not to do any works, are you still saved or where you never saved because you refuse to do any good works?

    Confusing stuff. Maybe I'll buy a study bible.
     
  2. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    I think using the term works to describe the Christian life is misleading. Most people think of works as being a possible way to obtain salvation. That of course is wrong. We are saved through the grace of God. However, Jesus told us to pick up our cross and follow Him. He also said that if we abide in Him then He will abide in us. He also told Nicademus that in order to be saved he must be born again.

    All of these statements from Jesus clearly indicate that:

    1) Salvation must cause a significant change in us if it's authentic.

    2) The Christian life is not just sitting back and waiting for the second coming but rather it requires hard work and possibly tribulation and even martrydom.

    3) We must abide in Him. We will sin but if we are authentic Christians we will repent and return to Him.

    These are not requirements for achieving some kind of reward in Heaven. These are necessary to enter the kingdom. As Mark puts it.

    Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
     
  3. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    Faith:
    Baptist
    If works are a necessary result of "saving faith" and completely inseparable, then they would essentially be a part of "saving faith" and thus part of salvation.

    If man has any will or effort in producing these works, then man effectively earns his salvation being that these works are inseparable from saving faith.
    If man has no will or effort in producing these works, then after salvation man becomes a robot of God. If a saved person is a robot of God, why does God not lead that person to sinless perfection if works can be accredited solely to God with no will or effort from man? Why does God only make a person relatively better, but allow (or make) the saved individual producing works "necessarily resulting" from salvation to sin (to some extent) when He is capable of preventing it?

    If salvation is by grace through faith alone and not by works as the Bible so clearly teaches, then works are essential to demonstrate to others the faith in man's heart. Because man looks on the outward appearance, he needs an outward display of works to make an educated guess at the heart of another.

    Just my thinking out loud.
     
  4. DavidsonBap

    DavidsonBap New Member

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    Straightarrow, that was very interesting stuff you just said. I'm going to sound like a real idiot but I just don't get this. If I understand you correctly, works is somehow related to salvation. I likely don't get what you are saying because this issue seems like a total paradox to me.
     
  5. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    The problem with this understanding of faith is that it turns it into an object in itself. Your faith is not literaly what saved you, the work of Christ on the cross saved you, you believing on this fact (faith) is what completed the transaction that was finished 2000 years ago. Christ died for your sins, you recieved the benefit of this when you believed.

    If you say that this faith must now produce works in your life, I ask again, why would it? The object of belief has been realized, Christ died for your sins, your sins are paid for, there is nothing left to do. It is not uncommon for a new believer to want to express gratitude (like the Samaritan) and do something in return, but it is not required by the belief in Christ's sacrifice for your sins. Does the fact that one does not have any outward show of gratitude mean that he did not recieve the gift? No, it means he is an ingrate.

    If the same faith that saved a man must also produce works, then it must also allow a man to move mountains.

    Matthew 17:20
    20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

    If you are unable to move the mountain, you don't really have faith.
     
  6. DavidsonBap

    DavidsonBap New Member

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    Aresman, you are speaking to same language as me. I'm not saying anybody else is wrong. I'm just saying I relate to what your saying. I don't want to associate you with me because I'm not the brightest person. But what you say seems to make sense to me and how I read the Bible, except for Mt:25 in my example above which I totally don't get...but for the most part I see faith alone as a requirement. But then again, I'm not the smartest so. I just read the Bible without study notes and I may seem like a moron here. I just wanted to discuss this faith salvation business. I don't know why.
     
  7. DavidsonBap

    DavidsonBap New Member

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    I can't move a mountain. I'll tell you that. I trip over my own underwear in the bathroom when it's at my ankles to be honest. I just feel anytime I do any charity work I just have to remember I have faith in Christ and these good deeds are not any type of requirement. Otherwise I feel like I'm trying to buy my way into heaven. My problem though. I just think this way. Maybe my wires are screwed up there in my head.
     
  8. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Take a look at 1Corinthians 3. Paul says this is the milk of the word, which naturally would be the first thing a new-born believer should be receiving.

    1 Corinthians 3:11-15
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    We must believe that God is going to judge his people, and we will be rewarded for our works. This is the faith that will produce works in a believer.
     
  9. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    We are not laboring for the free gift, we are laboring for the reward [​IMG]

    2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
    2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
     
  10. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    Faith:
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    Agree.

    True. Can you tell me what exactly "pick up our cross and follow Him" means?

    True. Can you tell me what "abide in Him" means?

    What does this have to do with works? A baby doesn't have to perform good works to show that it is truly born. It has only to breath and cry and whine. [​IMG]

    Please define "significant change." Does one who is saved as a six-year-old undergo the same "significant change" as one who is saved from drugs, alcohol, smoking, fornication, etc?

    Of course! Does this mean that you have to do "hard work" or be martyred to be saved?

    Does this include every sin ever committed during the Christian life? What happens if I die before I repent of a sin? Death could be the result of some types of sins, thus giving me no chance to repent of it.

    If by "enter the kingdom" you mean "go to heaven" do I need to "work hard" or be martyred to go to heaven?

    Look at the context of that verse. This is talking about end times and the threat to one's life. If one endures to the end, he will be "saved" from death, methinks.
     
  11. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    That's usually what I mean when I say that one is saved by faith.
     
  12. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I wasn't referring to your post, if that is what you thought, sorry... I meant the faith=salvation=works view. I know a little math from my younger days, faith=salvation=works will reduce to faith=works, which is clearly wrong.
     
  13. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    James, it may work like that in math....but not in this equation. Better read through James again. Faith in Christ saves us. That faith in Christ leads to works. Works out just fine and does not lead to faith=works.
     
  14. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    James 1:2-3
    2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
    3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

    James is writing to believers, and he is not talking about how to be saved, they are saved already.

    James 1:12
    12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    He is talking about reward for enduring temptation.

    James 2:11-14
    11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
    12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
    13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
    14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    He is talking about the judgment of believers, and being saved from judgment without mercy by showing mercy.
     
  15. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I agree that a saved man ought to have works, I think he will be very sorry if he doesn't. Faith will produce works, but it has to be the right faith.

    Hebrews 11:7
    7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
     
  16. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    They were cleansed. I don't think the lost are called clean, they're headed for the lake of fire. Words like "clean" and "virgin" are never used for the lost.

    Rewards and entering the Kingdom are synonymous. The Kingdom is not some mystical or simply spritual place. That's a fallacy that contradicts Scripture.

    Good way to look at it!

    There are two words associated with crowns, stephanos and diadema. Below is every occurrence of both, and you can click the link to download the parsing of each verse. Diadema has to do with sovereignty, while stephanos has to do with a victor’s wreath (crown) or reward. You work for crowns!


    Stephanos can be found in: Stephanos
    MAT 27: 29 MAR 15: 17 JON 19: 2 JON 19: 5 1CO 9: 25 PHL 4: 1
    1TH 2: 19 2TM 4: 8 JAM 1: 12 1PE 5: 4 REV 2: 10 REV 3: 11
    REV 4: 4 REV 4: 10 REV 6: 2 REV 9: 7 REV 12: 1 REV 14: 14

    Diadema can be found in: Diadema
    REV 12: 3 REV 13: 1 REV 19: 12
     
  17. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    James, I agree with what you wrote. So I not really sure where I missed it...but thanks for clearing it up. :rolleyes:
     
  18. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I sense sarcasm. I'm saying that Jesus will save a man who believes on Him regardless of whether that man ever lifts a finger to do a kind deed for another human being in his life. God did not ask 'what's in it for me' when he gave His Son for our sins. I don't know why, but He loved us while we were yet sinners, and not because of what we might do for Him. Best reason I can find is this:
    Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
     
  19. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    James, you are contradicting yourself...in a post earlier you said "Faith will produce works, but it has to be the right faith."

    And now you say "I'm saying that Jesus will save a man who believes on Him regardless of whether that man ever lifts a finger to do a kind deed for another human being in his life."

    So which is it? So Jesus could save a person, but yet that person not have the right faith?
    :confused:
     
  20. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I'm saying that the belief that Jesus died for my sins is not the same belief as the belief that Jesus is going to judge me according to my works or that Jesus' blood gives me the power to overcome sin.

    If a man is led to the Lord, believes he is a sinner and Jesus died for his sins so that he won't have to go to the lake of fire, is he saved? What if he is not told that he needs to repent of his sins now that he is saved, and he keeps on doing the same things he did before, just with the knowledge that the things are sins but that Jesus paid for those sins. Maybe his conscience tells him he shouldn't but it is the way things are done and he has no real motivation to stop. Is he still saved? If no, then faith in Jesus alone does not save the man. Saying he doesn't really believe is just a coverup for the teaching that a man must have works to be saved. This is where we start adding to the gospel and tell people that they need to believe, repent, confess and then they will be saved. We need to tell the truth, believe on the Lord and be saved, then confess and repent to be able to appear blameless at the judgment seat of Christ.
     
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