C. S. Lewis was not a Christian

Frogman,

I preached on that text just a couple of weeks ago. Great text, but I don't know how you think it relates to this discussion.

Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]How does vs. 13 fit into Paul's discussion?

Bro. Dallas

 

Dear Brother TinyTim,
Thanks for your prayers.

In the morning, preach what the Lord gives you. Never look down, but straight into the faces of your hearers.

IF they are the Lord's they will rejoice accordingly.

If that doesn't work, preach about how their kind of Baptists are right and all other kinds of Baptists are wrong, then every once in a while throw in those most ungodly Christians who don't even respect the name Baptist, you will at least know whether they are Baptist or not...

Bro. Dallas

 

In context, it means that when believers fall into unbelief (seems like an oxymoron, but it is reality) God keeps His promises to us. In other words, we are eternally secure in Christ in spite of our failings.

That says nothing about those who don't believe in Christ at all. All who do not believe in Christ will be damned.

Mark Osgatharp

 

We should probably open this in another topic thread.

But the context also speaks of Paul's reasoning for suffering, is that in order that the redeemed in Christ might receive the eternal glory in Christ?

We will disagree in our understanding of this, that is ok with me.

Bro. Dallas

 

And all whom Christ do not know will be damned. Regardless of their belief and even the evidence provided of their belief.

Greater context of Scripture (according to Paul) must be rightly divided.

BTW, check your pms.

I need to get to bed, tomorrow is a big day.

Trusting only in the strength that is in Christ Jesus,
Bro. Dallas

 

Mark,

Can a Christian disagree with what you believe and teach and not be a heretic in your eyes?

 

Mark,

Can a Christian disagree with what you believe and teach and not be a heretic in your eyes? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes. But a man cannot believe that there are other ways to salvation than faith in Jesus Christ and not be a heretic.

Mark Osgatharp

 

I am not asking about baptist groups, Lutherans, Epsiscopalians, etc. I am asking about being saved without knowing the name of Christ.

I asked if as a New Ager, though I believed in a different Jesus and God than the Bible, if I was saved, and someone on this board refused to answer that. It so happens I know I wasn't saved because God delivered me from those false beliefs, but I find it interesting that someone will not even condemn belief in a false god here. </font>[/QUOTE]Even if you think Lewis was wrong about inclusivism, I don't think you can say he is a non-Christian because of it.
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree. I never said anywhere that Lewis is not a Christian. I am trying to get clarity on some statements made here, but no one is clarifying.

Yes, but having some false things in them is not the same as a false religion, such as Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, etc. Huge difference!

How can they know Christ outside of Christ?? This makes no sense. Christ is not in Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism (Buddhism and Taoism do not even have God), New Age (unless you equate the New Age Christ with Jesus and I give you a million reasons why the New Age Jesus is not the true Jesus because I once believed in him), etc.

The true Jesus Christ is only in what he is, he can't be a false Jesus. This is a contradiction.

 

How can they know Christ outside of Christ?? This makes no sense. </font>[/QUOTE]They cannot know Christ outside of Christ. Inclusive theology doesn't say that Christ is known outside of Christ but outside of Christianity.

Inclusive theology does not say that Christ is in those things or tries to validate those things. That is universalism, which inclusivism clearly is not. Inclusivism considers the possibility some may come to the Father through Christ despite their false beliefs. And if they do, it is entire by the grace of Christ and not because of any validity found in their false beliefs.

Agreed.

 

Mark,

I HIGHLY doubt that Ken feels that there is any other way to Heaven then through Christ. What Ken and many others (Including I) have objections to is someone condemning a man to Hell unjustly. For the sake of argument, lets assume you are correct in saying that Lewis errors in a few sentences or paragraphs. You are going to relegate him to Hell despite all his other statements? So far in my time on BB we have relegated C.S. Lewis, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and many others to hell. As a rule of thumb why not discuss doctrinal issues rather then subjugating our (meaningless in the eternal picture) opinions on a fellow Christians salvation. The title of this thread is no less then highly arrogant. For the record, the fact that Lewis believes that people outside of Christianity can get in Heaven, makes his salvation no less relevant; it doesn’t condemn him to Hell and it doesn’t mean I won’t see him in Heaven. Again, let God judge Lewis’ salvation, but don’t tear down a man who spent his life fighting for the same cause you are fighting.

 

Gold Dragon, thanks for your post but I have understood inclusivism differently. I realize it is not the same as universalism (that everyone goes to heaven), but what I've understood it to mean is that there are those who are saved in non-Christian religions outside of knowing Christ. I've had Christians say to me that sincere Muslims who never hear of Jesus will be saved because they are worshiping the same God as Christians (which I disagree with) or are worshiping the only God they know -- this is inclusivism.

Also, what is the difference between being saved outside christ and outside christianity? Christianity is nothing more than being saved by Christ so I don't see what difference there is.

 

This is universalism.

This second statement is inclusivism. But I would say inclusivists believe a muslim may be saved by the grace of Christ despite and while worshipping the only god they know and not because they are worshipping the only god they know.

That is the primary distinction between inclusivists and exclusivists. That there is a possible set (using the language of set theory) of being saved by Christ outside of Christianity. You have defined your sets as to exclude this possiblity so that is why you cannot see the difference.

Inclusivists also believe the Christianity is being saved by Christ. But believe that the set of Christians is a subset of the set of those saved by the grace of Christ.

 

Okay, thanks for your explanation, Gold Dragon.

 

Dr. Bob
I vaguely recall that that list was 'defective'.
As in, almost everything in it being blatantly untrue.
But I'm no Lewis scholar. Do we even have anybody around here who is?

 

The conclusion of the matter: there are two or more definitions of Christian. One, according to scripture, the other(s) according to the world.

The problem arises when we try to fit the worldly paradigm to the scriptural--they always clash. This becomes a matter of spiritual discernment--an impossibility without having been born again--from above. See John Ch. 3.

Unsolicited observation: there are many unregenerated souls in high places in the religions of the world.

The words of Jesus, the Messiah, are quite plain: You do not get in the Kingdom of God without being born again.

Why do so many have a problem with God's salvation?

Selah,
Bro. James

 

Plenty of fodder in Lewis' words alone.

MERE CHRISTIANITY by C.S. Lewis

From the chapter: The Shocking Alternative

…Christ was killed for us, that His death has washed out our sins, and that by dying He disabled death itself. That is the formula. That is Christianity. That is what has to be believed. Any theories we build up as to how Christ's death did all this are, in my view, quite secondary: mere plans or diagrams to be left alone if they do not help us, and, even if they do help us, not to be confused with the thing itself. All the same, some of these theories are worth looking at.

We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him.

…fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms. Laying down your arms, surrendering, saying you are sorry, realizing that you have been on the wrong track and getting ready to start life over again from the ground floor - that is the only way out of our 'hole'.

Rob

 

The Shocking Alternative: "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9.

Mr. Lewis is among the myriads trying to work their way to God. No one has ever made it--by their works.

Selah,

Bro. James