Talking to the DEAD

Then it is good that we tackle this very important issue as the majority of the so-called Christendom run on the Broadway leading to the destruction!

You could never bring the ECF's who claimed that the Believers should eat Blood despite the prohibitions in OT. You are trying to lean on the ECF's again as you resorted to them whenever you could find no ground in the Bible. This proves that you don't believe in the Bible, right?

You are confused here again. We do have the eternal life and are living forever. But after we die, we are sleeping in the Paradise ( or called Bosom of Abraham). Where did Jesus say that you should pray thru the Dead?

As I mentioned already, To God, all are living as He can raise anyone whom He wishes. Are you God? Have you created the world?
Saints are sleeping, then do you need to pray to the sleeping? or thru the sleeping? Can you not pray directly to the God the Father? What kind of fear do you have that you don't pray to God directly?

I already told you they are sleeping. Read the Bible, 1 Cor 11:27-30, 15:20-25, 1 Thessalonians 4. Can you not accept that the believers are sleeping after they die?.

If 1.3 billion Catholic pray to the dead woman, Mary, from France, from South America, from Philippines, from Japan, can she listen to them from everywhere?

Neither Moses, nor Stephen, nor Paul prayed to the dead or thru the dead.
Jerome couldn't be right in everything. Moreover such writings cannot be authenticated as the Bible is supported by the thousands of manuscripts. How many manuscripts support what Jerome said?

Again, the dead believers are sleeping. As there are members which are not working but taking rest, some parts are taking rest and sleeping.

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Was there any census or opinion survey among the believers at that time? If the records of all ECF's are wrong against Bible, would you follow ECF over Bible?
What if ECF's contradict Bible, which would you take?

It may be well established by the pagan religion such as RCC, but not by the Bible believers!

None of the True believers like Donatists(Donatustians), Novatians, Paulicians, Albigenes, Waldensians, Anabaptists, Bogomils showed such practices of praying to the Dead. This is why we call them True Believers, not the pagan-fake Christians like RCC.

Let me ask you some more questions:

1) Could Mary accept the prayers from all over the world while she was alive?

2) Did Mary ever accept the prayer from the people and pass it to Jesus ( Not the personal hearing but praying) while she was alive?

3) Did Mary accept any prayer while she was sleeping when she was alive?

4) If 1.3 billion Catholic pray to ( or thru) Apostle Paul and Mary, then can they listen to them from all over the world, from South America, from Italy, from Asia, from Canada, from Russia ?

5) Could Mary or Abraham understand about the computer problems, automobile accidents, airplane reservation difficulties, Parkinson disease, Alzheimer, etc while they were alive? Then after the death, have they become Omniscient?

6) Could the dead believers travel everywhere at every moment?
How could they become Omni-Present?

7) When did their capacities explode?
Do the people's capacities explode only if they die?

Maybe, their capacities have exploed only in the minds of the pagan believers!

Nevertheless, are ECF's always right depite their contradiction to the Bible?

Do you believe ECF's over Bible teachings?

 

Mediums and others have used to Bible to justify what they do, but they're not taking into consideration that when Moses, who had died, and Elijah, who was taken alive into Heaven, were talking with Jesus during the Transfiguration, Jesus is not only a man but also God. As God, Jesuis can talk with anyone He wants. In Matthew Chapter 4, Jesus had a conversation with the Devil. How many people have had a conversation with the Devil?

Someone said that Moses was resurrected and referred to the pseudopigraphical book, The Assumption of Moses. No church uses The Assumption of Moses as part of its canon.

According to Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Samuel was still dead and spoke to King Saul: Even after Samuel died, he prophesied, revealing to the king that he, too, would die. Samuel spoke from the grave to prophesy and blot out the wickedness of the people. Sirach 46:20 NLT Catholic reference edition. The Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Coptic, and the Ethiopian churches use Sirach as part of their canon.

Someone expressed a concern that this would lead to spiritism and/or praying for the dead. I Chronicles 10:13 stated, "So Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord. He failed to obey the Lord's command, and he even consulted a medium instead of asking the Lord for guidance. So the Lord killed him and turned his kingdom over to David son of Jesse. NLT. Many years later, God became angry with King Manasseh because of his many sins, including consulting mediums (see II Chronicles 33:4-7). Although he prophesied, Samuel was upset with King Saul for conjuring him: Why hast thou disturbed my rest, Samuel asked, and brought me to earth again? I Kings (I Samuel) 28:15 Knox translation.

The footnote for I Samuel 28:12 in the New American Bible states, "Human beings cannot communicate at will with the souls of the dead. God may, however, permit a departed soul to appear to the living and even disclose things unknown to them. Saul's own prohibition of necromancy and divination (v 3) was in keeping with the consistent teaching of the Old Testament. If we are to credit the reality of the apparition to Saul, it was due, not to the summons of the witch, but to God's will; the woman merely furnished the occasion."

Roman Catholics pray for the dead to help them get out of Purgatory. The Eastern Orthodox also pray for the dead. Although they don't believe in Purgatory, they believe prayer can help those who have died. The only Protestants I know of who pray for the dead are the Episcopalians. "Q. Why do we pray for the dead? A. We pray for them, because we still hold them in our love, and because we trust that in God's presence those who have chosen to serve him will grow in his love, until they see him as he is." Page 862, 1979 Book of Common Prayer.

Someone on another message board pointed out:

Pray, pray. Pray without ceasing; why, because:
1. God is omniscient (all knowing).
2. God is not limited by time.
3. Any prayer we pray: He already knows and therefore has effect, yesterday, today and forever.
4. Prayer is without limits.
5. James 5:16 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervant prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
6. I find that praying for my dead loved ones can have an effect because of God's ability to know my prayer before I even pray.

raying: :1_grouphug: :jesus: :godisgood:

 

I don't talk to the dead. I'd be afraid they'd talk back! :laugh: :tongue3: :smilewinkgrin:

 

You never know! HEE HEE HEE!

 

Bringing Chronicles was very much valuable to this discussion. A good post!
Was it an error of Samuel's own prohibition? I didn't understand that phrase.

I think Prayer to the Dead or Prayer thru the Dead can be refuted very quickly as the acceptance of the Prayer is related to the Omni-Science, Omni-Presence, and eventually Omni-Potence.

But the Prayer for the Dead is another matter which requires another analysis and another approach though we have the prohibition in the Bible ( Psalm 106:28).

As Bob pointed out, only these are some parts of Talking to the Dead which is based on much misunderstanding.

 

Is that all the Bible says about anything at all? Or are there more important matters that Christians should attend to than deciding who among us is not Christian enough?

 

I like your user name.

 

Apparently we should distinguish between 4 concepts:

1) Prayer to the Dead.

2) Prayer thru the Dead


3) Prayer for the Dead

4) Other types of Talking to the Dead.

1), 2) are not possible unless the Dead are Omni-Scient, Omni-Present, eventually Omni-Potent. This means that praying to many of the Dead indicates the people believe in many gods, Polytheism.
For example, if a religion say that Mary is still alive and accept the prayers from all over the world, throughout the ages for 2000 years, for all the matters of the life, then Mary should have had the Almighty Power and Knowledge travelling all around the world, understanding all the troubles of the life and all the technical matters and environmental matters, throughout the years and years.
What would God do while He is watching over the people praying thru Mary? Can He not listen to the people directly? Why do the people pray thru Mary? What if they pray directly to God who is the most merciful and gracious?

But 3)Prayer for the Dead is totally different issue, which may be excused as a kind of Love for the Dead, praying to God for the Dead, which we find no ground in the Bible except the condemnation on it.

As for 4) other types of Talking to the Dead such as Spiritism can be discussed when we have another advocator for it.

All those are different issues, I think.

 

I Samuel 28:3 states that after Samuel died, King Saul removed the mediums from the land. Saul forbade conjuring spirits, but when God didn't answer him, he resorted to the medium.

 

What is your problem TP. This thread is not about Christian character. If you want to start one, do so. If you hadn't noticed the title of this thread is Talking to the Dead. It is a form of necromancy.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

The consequence of such sins was stoning--death. Necromany was and is talking to the dead.

 

Good. Well accepted.

 

And it’s important that you finish out to at least verse 15: … For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
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If you are going to quote context quote all of it, not only the small little portion that you think makes your point:

Deuteronomy 18:12-14 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

That is the rest of the paragraph. Verse 15 starts another paragraph. Seance is nowhere mentioned, though the practice would be included. You have a very limited interpretation. Talking to the dead is talking to the dead whether it be in "going to a witch" to conjure up the dead, as Saul tried to do, trying to do the same thing through a seance, or simply praying to Mary and other dead people. The cult is called Spiritism. I believe it is the governor general of Quebec who says that she talks to her (now deceased) grandparents on a daily basis. At least she is honest enough to admit that it is spiritism. It is a cult, and yes, part of the occult. Those prayers that you would encourage a little boy to pray to his recently deceased mother at a funeral can easily lead to the occult. It is not so innocent as you make it to be. One is not to pray to the dead; Period!
When one dies their spirit goes to Hell or Heaven. If they are unsaved, it is too late too pray for them. No matter what you do; how much you pray and fast; how many good works you do; there is nothing that you can do to release a person from hell. Praying for a person who has rejected Christ as Saviour is fruitless. His time to decide for Christ was on earth. Now Jesus offers to be your Saviour. After your death he will become your judge.
Now is the day of salvation.

 

DHK, what I am pointing out is the continual lust around these parts for Catholic-bashing. It's like an obsession. Unhealthy.

On the plus side, at least you are beginning to encourage posting entire passages instead of the Fundamentalist prooftexting game. Kudos.

 

No Bob, asking for their intercessory is NOT the same as conjuring up spirits for the sole purpose of gaining information. Don't care how you spin it, I ain't gonna buy it. It's not the same...period.

Furthermore, Christ says we Christians are graphed into the vine. You mean when we die, we are then cut off of that vine? I believe we are still connected to those who've passed on.

There's abosolutly no difference than me asking my wife to pray for me, than it is asking a realtive that has passed on to pray for me.
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