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CHRIST: Sinless or not?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by av1611jim, Jun 21, 2007.

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  1. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    The "you believe in a corrupt Jesus because you believe He drank" is a logical fallacy. People who believe the simple accounts given by the KJV and other versions simply believe that Jesus interacted with people who drank wine. Those people fully believe in the sinlessness of Christ. You're appproaching it from your perspective--the a priori that drinking wine is evil--and then you infer that we somehow "give Jesus a pass" on this one.

    Let's try another, less hot-button issue. Let's take Commandment #11..."Thou shalt not run in church." And let's throw Jesus in the mix. Here we go...
    • Is it sinful to run in church?
    • Did Jesus do it when He was little? If so, we must draw one of two conlcusions:
      • It ain't sinful, because He doesn't sin.
      • Because we know it to be a sin, He thus committed a sin, and we have a "different Jesus."
    You see, the focus very subtly is shifted from the Incarnate Perfect God to the acceptability of a particular action. Wrong order. If your Christology is right, the other stuff is gonna get in line.

    God knows right from wrong. Poor, mistaken, or incomplete understanding about how Christ handled a singular issue does not mean we worship "a different Jesus."

    HBSMN...

    First, this shows and apallingly bad leap of logic. But then it shows a more sinister edge IMO. Get your definitions straight...having a mistaken point of view (mistaken in your eyes) is not the same as lying.

    And you just questioned the salvation of a bunch of posters (in red). Bad move. You redefine "lie," make it mean something it doesn't, decide that people who disagree with you on a point of theology are "liars," and pull out your favorite verse that lists the "hellbound sins." It bothers me for two reasons: one, because you are doing the very thing that you are incensed about others supposedly doing:

    You're mad that other folks are "redefining sin" to include drinking...they're "changing the rules to suit them" according to you. Yet...you redefine the word "lie" to mean "to speak of a theological point I disagree with."

    NO ONE here believes that the Son of God ever, EVER sinned. Put your "liar" labels away. And let's lay off the backhanded questioning of others' salvation. I don't do it. I'm sure you lie awake at night and try to figure out ways to be like me. :laugh: Here's yer chance.
     
  2. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    A feeling? He said as much.
    Oh, and dinner wasn't ready yet :)
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I got my kids to understand that when they were about 6, and I was a bit worried that they were too old for that to be a difficult concept.
     
  4. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    If the practical outworking of the position is not valid, then either the conclusions you are drawing or the principle is incorrect, or both.


    That is actually my position.


    The Lord will know that I acted in faith, with utter sincerity, openness and devotion to the truth as I understood it, and He will be gracious toward me.


    Anyone who pays attention to the position I (and almost everyone else) advocates regarding the responsible Christian use of alcohol would be unlikely to find themselves “trapped in alcoholism.” But for the sake of your point, I’ll let that slide.


    The Lord will know that I acted in faith, with utter sincerity, openness and devotion to the truth as I understood it, and He will be gracious toward me.


    That would be quite surprising since that is what the Christian church has almost uniformly believed, until about 120 years ago. But for the sake of your point, I’ll pretend like it is true.


    Because that is what the scriptures apparently teach.


    Not a false Christ, rather, a picture of Christ that is not 100% accurate. (I also believe that no one has a completely 100% accurate view of Christ.)


    The Lord will know that I acted in faith, with utter sincerity, openness and devotion to the truth as I understood it, and He will be gracious toward me.


    Nope.

    The crusading “Christian” teetotalers judge others according to what they eat and drink (Colossians 2:16), not how faithfully they use it, and condemn them for their faith. Their view is “do not handle, do not taste, do not touch” (Colossians 2:22), and the make the kingdom of God about eating and drinking. These are matters which have the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. (Colossians 2:23)

    What will you say if you discover that Jesus did drink alcoholic wine (not to drunkenness) and that your unwillingness to accept the scripture for what it says, instead of relying on your man-made traditions, inspired the young people touched by your congregation to think that your faith (and Christianity in general) is phony? And don’t think that doesn’t happen... I grew up in a congregation that regularly beat us over the head regarding consumption of alcohol. Not only was it regarded as one of the chief distinctions between those who were lost and saved, it was defended at the expense of the clear teaching of scripture. Several people I grew up with (including a family member) decided that their childhood faith (and Christianity) was phony because of hypocrisies like these since scripture was used to justify flagrant racism, total abstinence from alcohol, and prohibitions against things like playing cards (“face cards” as they used to say) and asking hard questions about faith, doubt and the questions raised by modern science.

    Just because you promote abstainence (which you claim is purity*) you are not exempt from misrepresenting God.

    * Jesus plainly taught that the things you eat and drink DO NOT defile you (that is, make you impure). See Mark 7:17-23
     
  5. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    But stating it verbally and without accepting what the Word of God says makes it a lie
     
  6. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    No such thing as a Christian use of alcohol.
     
  7. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Then quit lying then.
    The only one being backed in to a corner of lies by what you say it you.
    Everyone is willing to extend grace to those that do not see things as we do except you.

    Everyone else seems to realize that as fallen men, sinners saved by grace we are fallible.

    Even if we are sincere, we are wrong sometimes.
    Someone else may be sincere and still wrong but that does not make them lost.

    Only you insist that ones salvation is thus dependent.
    If you insist that someone is lying, then YOU are the one.
     
  8. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Yeah, we got you about 85 pages ago.
     
  9. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Maybe I can get my kids to explain the difference. They're 13 and 10 now, so they have a really good grasp of the concept.
     
  10. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    If you were a woman, I'd ask you if you were single. Your whole response (of which I've only quoted some) was excellent.
     
  11. dan e.

    dan e. New Member

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    I second that. I thought it was a good, thought provoking post that explains some things I've failed to explain.
     
  12. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Ditto.

    I need more words to make the post long enough :)
     
  13. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Jesus Christ was and is sinless. It really does not matter what anyone on this thread thinks about what He might or might not have done. Whatever He did, He remained sinless. What we think as flawed being about the subject is a mute point. The bottom line is, I doubt anyone here really understands the depths of the word sinless, nor is God interested in the way one thinks Jesus might have acted out his life.
     
  14. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    An excellent summation.
     
  15. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Fortunately, I am not a woman. I'd sure hate to see a woman with this heavy of a beard. :laugh: And I'm blessed to be married to one who is surely one of God's finest creations. :love2:
     
  16. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Aw, that's sweet. She got a great guy.
     
  17. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    Well there you have it folks!

    Some will vehemently say that it does not matter what Jesus did or did not do, it is simply a matter of believing He was and is sinless.

    Others, equally vehemently say it does matter what Jesus did or did not do and that is the basis of their faith in His sinlessness.

    Thanks folks for wieghing in on the matter.

    See you in the next life.

    :saint:
     
  18. Conservative Christian

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    Numerous biblical passages cite Jesus as drinking wine, and I think the view of some Christians that it was "just grape juice" is naive.

    Drinking wine in moderation is not a sin, the key word being "moderation". One glass of wine with your meal is not a sin. Drinking enough to become inebriated and/or act in an unsavory manner, IS a sin.

    Belief that Jesus did or did not drink wine has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.
     
  19. His Blood Spoke My Name

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    Can you cite those 'several passages'? I can't find them in any of the old versions.

    BTW, it is important we know Jesus, not a facsimile...

    But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him]. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9)
     
    #99 His Blood Spoke My Name, Jun 21, 2007
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  20. Conservative Christian

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    **Insult removed**. Just one off the top of my head:

    Matthew 11:19 (KJV)---"The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."
     
    #100 Conservative Christian, Jun 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2007
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