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A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jun 27, 2007.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    True - you can not say that the "sign" that you "never had the Word implanted and never were saved is that yo failed to CONTINUE to hold FAST the Word that was implanted and to remain in Christ" you have circular logic.

    The sign of never having something can not be failure to RETAIN it!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #41 BobRyan, Jun 29, 2007
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed - Matt 18 speaking of "forgiveness REVOKED" Christ said "SO shall My Father do to EACH one of you if YOU do not forgive your brother from your heart" --

    Clearly a call for perseverance.

    In Rom 11 the same thing "but you should FEAR for if HE did not spare them NEITHER will he spare you" speaking again of the Gal 5:4 problem of "being severed from Christ".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #42 BobRyan, Jun 29, 2007
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree with James on that one - but what does that have to do with OSAS - unless we are talking about J Jump's solution for OSAS.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #43 BobRyan, Jun 29, 2007
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    A better question is this "IF OSAS were true we should NOT expect to find such a text as "SEVERED from Christ" and "Fallen From Grace" and "Forgiveness Revoked" and regarding the fallen Jews example saying to Christians "FEAR for Neither will He spare you"

    In Gal 5:4 "Severed FROM Christ" and "Fallen From Grace" has to be "spun around" as OSAS "Saved anyway" just as you have done.

    The problem is that now you have to preach a Gospel of "Salvation APART from Christ and Grace and faith".

    When the Bible fact is "By GRACE are you saved THROUGH Faith" in Christ,

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #44 BobRyan, Jun 29, 2007
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As we have been asked to "suppose that OSAS is true for a minute" and then asked questions.

    I would ask that we look at Matt's statement above and "suppose that OSAS is false for a moment" -- now ask yourself this... IF Matt is correct AND if OSAS is not true... then it means that Matt is SEEING real genuine born-again salvation experiences that are being "denounced" by a certain group within the OSAS camp as "nope that never was salvation at all".

    Now what does that do to ASSURANCE?? It means that REAL salvation experiences WITNESSED by all are being DENOUNCED as "not really salvation".

    So then when you see someone in that part of the OSAS camp - you have to wonder HOW they can have assurance AT ALL --- UNTIL they see that ten years from today they STILL remain faithful and do not fail to persevere and so declare today's assurance to be false.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #45 BobRyan, Jun 29, 2007
  6. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Indeed. Good point.
     
    #46 Matt Black, Jun 29, 2007
  7. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    No he is not. Saints cannot become as such. For we have the Holy Ghost living in us. Sons of disobedience do not.
     
    #47 2 Timothy2:1-4, Jun 29, 2007
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    OSAS is about the fidelity of God;
    not the perfidy of man.

    Being faithful to the Lord,
    preserving to one's end --
    that is about the duty of saved
    humans     -- the Lord has already
    done His duty     in the death, burial,
    and Resurrection.
     
    #48 Ed Edwards, Jun 29, 2007
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Now where did you ever get that idea brother!!!! Oh, that's right, the word of God! :thumbs:

    AMEN! brother, it's just to simple for some folks to grasp. :wavey:
     
    #49 steaver, Jun 29, 2007
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So where do we FIND these texts??

    Oh that's right! The Bible!!:thumbs:

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #50 BobRyan, Jun 30, 2007
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I know I never saw the words "forgiveness revoked" anywhere. Nor do I see the words "salvation revoked" anywhere in your quote.

    Study to show thyself approved! :thumbs: Discernment brother!

    God Bless! :wavey:
     
    #51 steaver, Jun 30, 2007
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    BobRyan:

    "A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS"

    GE:

    So what are you, trying to salvage, dear brother? Do you want to UNDO 'Once Saved Always Saved'? What is in it for you? That there is no surity nor security once one has been saved through Jesus Christ? Then ultimately what, is your, surity and security, dear brother? What?
     
    #52 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jun 30, 2007
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Originally Posted by mman
    You cannot fall from grace? The Apostle Paul, speaking by inspiration, disagrees.

    Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

    GE:

    You ARE, severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; of grace ye fell." (Genitive Subject ... not 'from'-'apo' plus Accusative.)

    What, if man would be justified by the law, were it not for grace? Genesis 3;24, "Behold, man has become like one of us, to know good and evil: And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever!"
    It is mercy even the fact "You ARE, severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law."
     
    #53 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jun 30, 2007
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Why? So that God may be glorified even in the destruction of the wicked.
     
    #54 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jun 30, 2007
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    BobRyan:

    "regarding the fallen Jews example saying to Christians "FEAR for Neither will He spare you" -- so what are they doing there -- just trying to trick Arminians into believing them??"

    GE:

    No; just trying to awaken in your conscience the fear, for neither will He spare you, the Arminians, believe God! 'The Arminians' it seems are saved through fear, although Jesus said love drives out fear. OSAS believers believe themselves saved by grace through faith, trusting God, and entrusting God, with the salvation of their souls.
     
    #55 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jun 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2007
  16. JDale

    JDale Member
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    That's still a pretty good deal when you come right down to it. Say one has been a Christian for years -- maybe even a couple of decades. He/She eases back into drinking, carousing, partying -- you know, like ALOT of Baptists -- falls in with the wrong crowd, illicit behavior, maybe drugs, marriage ends, family broken. BUT, hey, no matter how many lives this one destroys, how much anguish this one brings, and most importantly, no matter how FAITHLESS or hostile the Christ this one becomes...This one is going to heaven to spend eternity with a loving Saviour who would NEVER condemn one of His own....

    Only problem -- that's NOT what Scripture teaches. There is no security in sin. THere is no such thing as an "unbelieving believer." Once a believer follows Jesus, ALL his/her sin is forgiven, but if they return to a point where they REJECT that faith and DENY the Lord who bought them, there is NO promise of heaven. On the contrary, there remains only apostasy and eternal judgment.
     
    #56 JDale, Jun 30, 2007
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be unwittingly arguing that Romans 11 IS speaking to Arminian Christians! In which case Calvinism is doctrinal error sir.
     
    #57 BobRyan, Jun 30, 2007
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The false doctrine of OSAS is all too easily debunked when contrasted to the pure light of scripture --

    Matt 18 - "Forgiveness Revoked" parable.

    John 15 "Vines taken out of Christ and burned"

    Gal 5:4 "Severed from Christ... FAllen from Grace"

    Romans 11 - Branches cast out as the unbelieving Jews "you too FEAR for you stand only by your FAITH - If GOD did not spare THEM then NEITHER will He spare you"

    So "what is in it for me" is to expose this false "Peace and Safety" Jeremiah 6:14 doctrine in the light of the obvious, blatant clear warnings of Christ against it.

    Christ IS the "Way the TRUTH and the Life" - by accepting the TRUTH of scripture (including the warnings IN scripture) we rely upon Christ alone - not the man-made doctrines of error.

    Your belief in OSAS causes you to turn a blind eye to actual BIBLE ASSURANCE sir. In "the BIBLE" assurance is not through the man-made doctrine of OSAS - but through the PRESENT witness of God the Holy Spirit and the WORD "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God" --

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #58 BobRyan, Jun 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2007
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    It is left as an exercise for the objective reader to SEE if you see what Steaver claims he can not see in Matt 18...

    Matt 18

    32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "    You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

    The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

    Matt 18
    33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

    Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

    Matt 18
    34 ""And his lord, moved with anger,     handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

    Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
    .
    Matt 18
    35 "" My heavenly     Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

    Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

    Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues (and motivates Peter via the illustration given as an answer to Peter’s question) that WE who have been forgiven by our heavenly Father “should” as in (are obligated to) forgive others.
     
    #59 BobRyan, Jun 30, 2007
  20. JDale

    JDale Member
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    Well, that's arrogant. Some of "us Arminians" have spent months and posted on multiple threads attempting to educate others that we indeed DO affirm "Salvation by Grace through Faith" and "The Just shall live by Faith."

    Evidently Gerhard missed those previous attempts -- either that, or the old adage is true -- there is none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

    JDale
     
    #60 JDale, Jun 30, 2007
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