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Pre-tribulation rapture

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ByGracethroughFaith, Sep 4, 2007.

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  1. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Both can be correct, either God the Father or the Trinity. What you illustrated can be refuted as follows:

    1) Jesus meant JN 2 by obeying Himself to His Father, and thereby, He believed that His Father will raise Him up. So, He didn't mean the resurrection by Himself but by the Father.
    If Anyone is in a position to Raise himself from the dead, then he was no longer dead. He should have been alive always in order to raise himself from the dead. Therefore it is contradictory, denying the complete death of Jesus.

    2) Romans 8:11 - You misunderstood quite a lot about this verse.
    You better read the Greek Text to avoid the misinterpretation.

    Ει δε το Πνευμα του εγειραντοσ Ιησουν εκ νεκρων οικει ( there is a little variance among texts here, but it doesn't affect my point)

    Re-translation:
    If the Spirit of the person who raised Jesus out of the Dead dwells in (you)
    The Greek word for "the person who raised" (Jesus from the Dead) is one word. That means the God the Father who raised Jesus. Again this means The Spirit of the God the Father who raised Jesus out of the Dead.
    Therefore this verse is talking that God the Father raised Jesus.

    Ask TCGreek if my translation is correct.

    3) The word ηγερθη in Luke 24:6
    But He is risen : this word has been used 18 times as the Passive mood in NT. This means that He was raised by someone else.
    We can notice the word has been used always in passive mood. It cannot be said that Jesus raised Himself, but we believe Jesus laid down Himself unto death, even the death at the Cross, in absolute obedience to God the Father. The Son believed in His Father.
    The most difficult job for the God in Tri-unity who cannot die was to die at the Cross by the hands of His creatures. That Job, the most difficult job was done by His beloved Son.
    And the job of rasing Him from the Dead was done by His Father.
    The Holy Spirit is to witness what the Son has done at the Cross. Before that the Holy Spirit gave birth to the Son in the womb of Mary. Then the job of taking care of the Church is done by the Holy Spirit so that the Truth of Cross may be preached to the people and accepted by the believers under the headship of Jesus Christ.

    However one can hardly separate the Trinity of Godheads for each job etc. and I can agree that Trinity work in all the operation of the universe and in the work of Redemption, though the job was done specifically for each step.

    4) Now in your theology, you may be saying that Albigenes were wrong and heretics because they didn't believe according to your theology, and you may be condemning me that I should go to the hell because I don't believe in the same as you believe about who has raised Jesus Christ from the dead.
    But do I have to agree with you that if anyone doesn't know how the Trinity worked together, exactly, then she or he should go to the Hell?
    No, Sir!

    In your Bible it may be written this way:

    The Robber at the Cross said to Jesus " Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy Kingdom" Luke 23:42
    43 Jesus said to him " Do you know Trinity of Godheads? and that the Holy Spirit works in me?" Robber said, " NO, Sir" Jesus said " then you should go to the Hell !"
    According to BGTF Bible, which is also modified for PTR.

    BGTF,

    Read my post in the other thread written about Albigenes. They were the victims by the false accusations made by RCC. You will see them in the Heaven, but you will be ashamed about your false accusation and wrongful judgment on them. I won't be ashamed about my assessment on them on that Day.
     
    #181 Eliyahu, Sep 18, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2007
  2. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    BGTF, For YOu Info.

    I posted this on the other thread:
    8888888888888
    Returning to the OP issue and about Albigenes' Dualism, we don't know exactly what and how they claimed the dualism. What we hear is the accusations by their enemies, RCC. RCC claim that they believed in 2 gods, one good god and another bad god. If so, they were not monotheists but the polytheists. Can you believe such claim while they were eager to translate the Bibles all the time?

    My understanding is that they might have explained the worldwide phenomena as 2 categories, one worked out directly by God, the other worked out indirectly thru Satan deserted by God.
    For example, God deserts some people to the hand of Satan as we read 1 Cor 5, and Romans 1:19-

    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.

    Usually, RCC argued with their opponents about the Gospel and the Fallacy of RCC vehemnently, then they knew their serious problems of Idolatry and goddess worship, prayer to the dead, purgatory, papacy, etc.
    There must have been a huge arguments raised by Albigenes but RCC couldn't defend themselves in most of the arguments. Then they found a certain ambiguity in the arguments of Albigenes which RCC deemed easy to attack, then they exaggerated a certain contradiction of weakness of their belief, then condemned them as Heretics, burning all the literatures and writings by themselves. So, what we can learn thru RCC about Albigenes is that Albi's were simply heretics, believed in 2 gods and heretics. They cannot explain how Albigenes were eager to translate the Bible, to publish the Bilbe, to read the Bible.
    However, from time to time we can get a certain glympse of the opponents of RCC thru the surviving literatures such as the Inquisitor's interogation report which I posted.
    Albigenes refused the Papacy, rejected Idolatry, rejected Mary worshio, rejected Purgatory, rejected Clergy system but had Berbe (Elders) according to the Bible, they called the RCC the Harlot in the Revelation, Pope is the head of all the errors, believed all are to be called Brethren, rejected Infant Baptism which is absolutely right.

    RCC never reported such fact positively. If we had them today, we could let them speak and advocate themselves. But what RCC did was absolutely the same as the Unbelievers, torturing and killing them and forfeting their properties. Did the Bible ask the church to rape the heretic women and torture and kill their male believers?

    Read the Titus 3:10, As for Heretics, after the first and the second admonition, reject.
    What RCC did and still do not repeal ( so that they may do it again in the future when they become powerful again) is this:
    - Rape the women,
    - Torture the male believers and kill them
    - Bash their infants onto the rocks
    - Forfeit their properties
    - Burn their writings and cover up all their arguments
    - Create new accusations and condemn them as Heretics with the charge of false accusations
    - Hold the party with the money and property forfeited from them
    - Threaten and warn other people with these examples.

    This is the history of RCC throughout the past 1700 years.

    However, God preserved His Story and there are the descendant of Albigenes today who truly accepted the Lord and believe Albigenes were condemned unjustly. Albigenes may be the group of believers who were mostly condemned and received the mostly unjust recognition.
     
  3. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

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    Back to the OP

    Eliyahu

    Bob hasn't addressed the issue of imminence yet with regards to historicism, perhaps you could address it with regards to mid-trib partialism.


    BGTF
     
  4. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I don't know about historicism, and cannot explain what I don't know.
    I cannot defend what I don't know and I don't insist on what I don't know.

    My stance is Partial Mid-Tribulation Rapture, which is not simple at all.
     
  5. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

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    My question is how do you fit the imminence of Christ's return into the Partial Mid-trib rapture (PMTR) position?

    Exchange the word historicist in my address to Bob for PMTR.

    BGTF
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Five Judgements

    The Lord God is a judging God

    "To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

    A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
    B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
    C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

    The Five Judgements:

    1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
    WHO: All who will Believe
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
    (and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    "

    2. Judgement Seat of Christ
    WHO: Believers for works
    WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
    Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Heaven
    WHY: to assign rewards (including
    the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
    to the redeemed for their good works
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
    (Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
    Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
    WHO: Yisrael
    WHEN: during the Tribulation
    WHERE: earth
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Great Tribulation

    4. Throne of His Glory judgement
    (AKA: Sheep and Goat Nations judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
    2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
    WHO: the nations: the living surviver nations of the Great Tribulation
    (these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
    WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
    who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
    HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
    WHAT: the cursed nations to Hell; the blessed nations
    to the Millennial Messanic KingdomAge

    5. Great White Throne judgement
    (Revelation 20:11:15)
    WHO: the wicked dead
    WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
    WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
    WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    judgements above does not preclude other specific
    or general judgements. One place on the net i found
    a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
    The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
    by His revelation to us nor
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

    --compilation by ed,
    incurable Jesus Phreaque
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Word study day of the Lord and related phrases:


    I: 27 each day of the Lord found:

    Isa 13:6 (HCSB): Wail! For the day of the Lord is near.
    It will come like destruction from the Almighty.

    Isa 13:9 (HCSB): Look, the day of the Lord is coming-
    cruel, with rage and burning anger-
    to make the earth a desolation
    and to destroy the sinners on it.

    La 2:22 (HCSB): You summoned my attackers on every side,
    as if [for] an appointed festival day;
    on the day of the Lord's anger
    no one escaped or survived.
    My enemy has destroyed
    those I nurtured and reared.

    Eze 7:19 (HCSB): They will throw their silver into the streets,
    and their gold will seem like something filthy.
    Their silver and gold will be unable to save them
    in the day of the Lord's wrath.
    They will not satisfy their appetites
    or fill their stomachs,
    for these were the stumbling blocks
    that brought about their iniquity.

    Eze 13:5 (HCSB): You did not go up to the gaps or restore
    the wall around the house of Israel so that it might stand in battle
    on the day of the Lord.

    Ho 9:5 (HCSB): What will you do on a festival day,
    on the day of the Lord's feast?

    Joe 1:15 (HCSB): Woe because of that day!
    For the day of the Lord is near
    and will come as devastation from the Almighty.

    Joe 2:1 (HCSB): Blow the horn in Zion;
    sound the alarm on My holy mountain!
    Let all the residents of the land tremble,
    for the day of the Lord is coming;
    in fact, it is near-

    Joe 2:11 (HCSB): The Lord raises His voice
    in the presence of His army.
    His camp is very large;
    Those who carry out His command are powerful.
    Indeed, the day of the Lord is terrible and dreadful -
    who can endure it?

    Joe 2:31 (HCSB): The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the great and awe inspiring day of the Lord comes.

    Joe 3:14 (HCSB): Multitudes, multitudes
    in the valley of decision!
    For the day of the Lord is near
    in the valley of decision.

    Am 5:18 (HCSB): Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord!
    What will the day of the Lord be for you?
    It will be darkness and not light.

    Am 5:20 (HCSB): Won't the day of the Lord
    be darkness rather than light,
    even gloom without any brightness in it?

    Ob 1:15 (HCSB): For the day of the Lord is near,
    against all the nations.
    As you have done, so it will be done to you;
    what you deserve will return on your own head.

    Zep 1:7 (HCSB): Be silent in the presence of the Lord God,
    for the day of the Lord is near.
    Indeed, the Lord has prepared a sacrifice;
    He has consecrated His guests.

    Zep 1:8 (HCSB): On the day of the Lord's sacrifice
    I will punish the officials, the king's sons,
    and all who are dressed in foreign clothing.

    Zep 1:14 (HCSB): The great day of the Lord is near,
    near and rapidly approaching.
    Listen, the day of the Lord-
    there the warrior's cry is bitter.

    Zep 1:18 (HCSB): Their silver and their gold
    will not be able to rescue them
    on the day of the Lord's wrath.
    The whole earth will be consumed
    by the fire of His jealousy.
    For He will make a complete,
    yes, a horrifying end
    of all the inhabitants of the earth.

    Zep 2:2 (HCSB): before the decree takes effect
    and the day passes like chaff,
    before the burning of the Lord's anger overtakes you,
    before the day of the Lord's anger overtakes you.

    Zep 2:3 (HCSB): Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth,
    who carry out what He commands.
    Seek righteousness, seek humility;
    perhaps you will be concealed
    on the day of the Lord's anger.

    Zec 14:1 (HCSB): A day of the Lord is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence.

    Mal 4:5 (HCSB): Look, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

    Ac 2:20 (HCSB): The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and remarkable day of the Lord comes;

    1Co 5:5 (HCSB): turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

    1Th 5:2 (HCSB): For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

    2Th 2:2 (HCSB): not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.

    2Pe 3:10 (HCSB): But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.


    II: 3 each day of Christ found:

    Php 1:6 (HCSB): I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

    Php 1:10 (HCSB): so that you can determine what really matters and can be pure and blameless in the day of Christ,

    Php 2:16 (HCSB): Hold firmly the message of life. Then I can boast in the day of Christ that I didn't run in vain or labor for nothing.


    III: 3 each day of God found:

    Job 20:28 (HCSB): The possessions in his house will be removed,
    flowing away on the day of God's anger.

    2Pe 3:12 (HCSB): as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be on fire and be dissolved, and the elements will melt with the heat.

    Re 16:14 (HCSB): For they are spirits of demons performing signs, who travel to the kings of the whole world to assemble them for the battle of the great day of God, the Almighty.


    IV: 7 each day of judgment found:

    Mt 10:15 (HCSB): I assure you: It will be more tolerable
    on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

    Mt 11:22 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.

    Mt 11:24 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

    Mt 12:36 (HCSB): I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every careless word they speak.

    2Pe 2:9 (HCSB): then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

    2Pe 3:7 (HCSB): But by the same word the present heavens and earth are held in store for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    1Jo 4:17 (HCSB): In this, love is perfected with us so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; for we are as He is in this world.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    We see "unnexpected" in Matt 24 EVEN though Matt 24 says "AFTER the tribulation of those days... they will SEE the Son of man coming... he will GATHER his elect".

    The one principle/truth does not negate the other.

    "As it was in the days of Noah" Matt 24 applies to BOTH events.

    In Noah's day they were "caught" by the fact that the door of the ark closed 7 days before the rain fell. But they were not aware enough to know it spelled doom. Then when they actually SAW the rain fall they realized too late that they "missed the boat".

    In the same way the future judgment catches them off guard and then fall the plagues (wrath of God) and then comes the appearance of Christ.

    They are surprised that they should suddenly experience the wrath of God as we see in 1Thess 5.

    1Thess 5 -

    1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
    2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
    3While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
    4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
    5for you are all sons of light and sons of day We are not of night nor of darkness;
    6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
    7For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
    8But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
    9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #188 BobRyan, Sep 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2007
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Ed that is interesting but it skips the primary future judgment focus of the NT and OT authors.

    in Dan 7 we have almost an entire chapter dedicated to highlighting the future pre-second coming judgment scene for mankind.

    "The court sat and the books were opened... and JUDGMENT was passed in favor of the saints".

    in Romans 2:11-16 that same future judgment event is highlighted as "on the day when according to My Gospel God will JUDGE" and the BASIS for decisions in that judgment described in detail in Rom 2:4-13.

    In 2Cor 5:10 the same judgment event is seen.

    At the close of that judgment -- when it is over the Rev 16 day of the wrath of God can begin and it closes with the Rev 19 coming of Christ.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

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    Historicism, like PMTR, like post-trib, all fail in regards to the doctrine of the imminence of Christ's return, and leave these questions unanswered.

    Are you expecting Christ to come 5 minutes from now?
    Is there anything preventing Christ coming 5 minutes from now?
    If so, what is it?
    Are you looking for Christ to come, or the wrath of God to come first?

    Luke 21 has the answer you are looking for with regards to the parallel passage in Matt 24.

    Luke 21:34-36 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


    BGTF
     
  11. peterotto

    peterotto New Member

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    Matt 24:64
    ---------------------

    64Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

    Question for BGTF.
    Did the high priest see Jesus COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN?
     
  12. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

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    I believe you meant Matt 26:64.

    Matt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    The high priest will see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power in Rev 20:11, and along with those who pierced Him will be given to see Christ's second coming as per Rev 1:7.

    Answer: He has not yet seen Christ coming in the clouds of heaven, but for the increase of his torment he will be made to see it.

    Maybe you could give me an answer regarding how the imminence of Christ's return fits into your eschatology?


    BGTF
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Unfortunately, giving your car more gas on ice does NOT
    make it move forward any faster. Imminence is
    a key factor in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurreciton view.

    Those who believe in the mid-trib rapture are
    at least 3-½-years before the rapture.
    Those who believe in the post-trib rapture only
    are at least 7-years before the rapture.

    Only the pretribulation rapture position shows true
    imminence.

    I also note that very few (even some pre-tribs)
    see Matthew 24:4-14 as signs that the Church Age
    (AKA: Age of Grace, Time of the Gentiles, and others).
    But all Matthew 24:4-14 (and parallel parts of Mark
    & Luke) are signs that the Church Age continues.
    When these signs go away - the pre-tribulation rapture
    will happen soon or will have just happened.
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    You always keep on saying Matt. 24:31 is a 'pretrib gathering'. You cut verse 31 out of the context with verse 29-30.

    How can you be sure that Matt. 24:31 telling us it will be before tribulation? While Christ told us of Matt. 24:29, it will be immediately AFTER the tribulation, as Christ continued speak of verse 29 thru 31 about second coming.

    Also, in 2 Thess. 2:1-4 telling us, day(day of Christ, our gathering together) shall NOT come till we shall see three things must come to be occured first - 'falling away' in Greek word - 'apostasia' means depart from the faith, and 'the revealed of man of sin' shall be revealed. Then, third sign - 'he shall sitteth in the temple of God' means Satan shall war against Church- persecution.

    Also, 2 Thess. 2:5-9 telling us, Satan is right now holding back by God, he is not yet revealed. Till the apostasy within Church become worst, God knows when the right time to come, God shall allow Satan -'come out of the way(midst)- loosed out of the bottomless pit(Rev. 17:9; Rev. 20:2-3; 7), then Satan shall deceived the world and persecute against the Church. Then, 2 Thess. 2:8-9 tell us, when Christ shall come, He shall destroy Satan.

    Both 2 Thess. 2:1, and 8-9 speak of 'coming' is the same event.

    There is not a single clear proof verse find anywhere in the Scriptures telling us that Christ shall come before tribulation. Also, the Bible doesn't teaching us there will be two or three future comings. Bible teaches us, Christ shall come again at ONCE. Clearly, Bible teaching us, his coming is posttribulational.

    Early Church taught posttribulational coming. None of them were teaching pretribulational coming, because pretribulationism doctrine was not yet existed for long time about 1800 years since after Calvary. Till 19th Century, pretribulationism doctrine was born.

    That why, I stick with Early Church fathers' teachings, and also, follow what the Bible saying than what today's men's teaching(Col. 2:8).

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) [AKA: gathering]
    with the Second Advent (SC = Second Coming): when Jesus comes
    to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
    Millennial Messanic Kingdom [AKA: Glorious Appearance].

    1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
    (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
    1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

    2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
    2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
    (Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

    3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
    (1 Thess 4:16-17)
    3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
    (Rev 19:6-14)

    4R. end of the Gentile Age
    (Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
    4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
    (Revelation 19)

    5R. Tribulation period begins
    5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

    6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
    (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
    6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
    (Rev 6:12-17)

    7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
    (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
    7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
    (Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

    8R. Focus: Lord and Church
    (1 Thess 4:13-18)
    8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
    (Romans 11)

    9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
    9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

    10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
    10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
    judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
    judgement.

    11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
    11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

    12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
    12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

    13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
    -- from the wrath to come (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9)
    13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come (Matt 3:7, Luke 3:7)
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    The early church did not teach Post-tribulational ONLY
    coming. Perchance the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    doctrine didn't come about until the early 19th Century
    (1801-1900). But the post-tribulation only rapture doctrine
    didn't get started until the 20th Century (1901-2000)
     
    #196 Ed Edwards, Sep 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2007
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    #197 Ed Edwards, Sep 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2007
  18. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Good point.

    correct.

    Correct. Sit in the temple can be both : Church will have to obey the Anti-Christ ( maybe they have to have the picture or statue of the Anti-Christ) while Temple Mount will be handed over to Vatican. Pope will sit in there too as per Oslo Agreement in 1996, 2003 as the Vatican will move to Jerusalem. Arafat agreed on this.

    Not the Re 20:7. but upto Re 19 OK. Others are correct.

    Correct.

    However, what we are arguing here is the Rapture. There will be a Rapture, but it is only for the part of the church. So, it is a partial Rapture as in Re 11:11-13. There will be no other Rapture. Jesus comes after Tribulation of the Remnants of the Church believers, after y years of GT.

    YOu are correct. But do you know who initiated PTR?
    I guess it was J N Darby, and Schofield followed him. I am a so-called PB and therefore I hear about this PTR so much, which I respectively disagree to all the time.
     
    #198 Eliyahu, Sep 19, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2007
  19. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Keep sharing bro! :thumbs:

    The timing of the rapture is not my passion of study. So i do take the time to consider everyone's views and refferences. As a student just sitting here on the sidelines reading what my brothers are posting and deliberating I find Ed's research of the scriptures on this to be very exhaustive, very thorough. As an unbias observer I have to say that a full pretrib rapture appears to be what is taught from the scriptures.

    But here is a question. If I am wrong so what? What do I lose? I still trust Jesus Christ to keep me and save me from the wrath of God whether He pulls me out before the wrath or whether He protects me through the wrath. Tell me why it matters what I believe about this subject? What do I have to gain or lose by what I believe about myself in connection with the tribulation?

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Think you, Brother Steaver - You are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

    I want to write two posts in response to your post:

    1. A description of what & why the Eschatology revealed
    (thru the Scripture & Prayer) to me is different
    from that of say 'Tim LaHaye' (I haven't read John E. Walvoord
    yet, but I have one of his books MAJOR BIBLE PROPHECIES.)

    2. Why Prophecy? The Bible purpose of Eschatology is
    to make us better servants of God.
     
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