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#2 The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PRT)

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Ed Edwards, Oct 16, 2007.

?
  1. pre-tribulation rapture ONLY

    33.3%
  2. pre-tribulation & post tribulation raptures

    9.1%
  3. post-tribulation only

    30.3%
  4. rapture is spiritual not physical

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. none of the above (partial-, mid-, pre-, etc)

    21.2%
  6. don't know OR other (specify)

    6.1%
  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    EE
    "However, note TWO groups of saved people in Revelation 20:4 which DOES imply more than one general resurrection."

    GE
    Again, why must I quote the text - you read it! It says, "I saw thrones, and they - "the nations", "not deceived" of verse 3b - "I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; I saw the souls of them (these very same) that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God and which (very same souls / nations not deceived / witnesses) had not worshipped the beast neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands, that (they the very same souls / nations / witnesses) lived and reigned with Christ Thousand Years", -- glorious kingdom of God!

    I and you have now here read with our own eyes, of ONE 'group'. All their properties together may be expressed by any single of their properties.
     
    #61 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2007
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1Thess 4 shows BOTH the resurrection AND the rapture -- ONE event.

    REv 20:4-5 speaks of it as "THE first resurrection" -- ONE event

    By contrast -

    No question that you have stated well that you want to find in scripture the "resurrection2" happens 1000 years before the GWTJ - end of millennium and "resurrection1" happens 1007 years before the great white throne judgment.

    But instead of that - what we actually find in scripture is that it is resurrection1 - THE FIRST Resurrection - that is 1000 years before the GWTJ -- not the second or even the seconf-first resurrection.

    But as you say - you invent the idea of two first resurrections.

    A first-first and a second-first that you call resurrection1 and resurrection2.

    One has to wonder how far down that path you are willing to go before saying 'hey wait a minute!!'

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Bob always willing to offer some help.

     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    //One has to wonder how far down that path
    you are willing to go before saying 'hey wait a minute!!'//

    I was pretribulation rapture/resurrection person
    when I was saved in 1952. I've found no reason
    to disbelieve that. I've found more reasons to
    beleive it.

    All the way to the grave or the
    pretribualation raputure2.
    I don't know the date of the pretribulation
    rapture1/resurrection1.

    An athiest asked me how long I was going to wait
    for Jesus to come get me before I give up.
    It has been 2007-30 years since Jesus left (1,977 years)
    I said well, 360 days times 7 years times 1 day = 1,000
    years would be 2.5 million. "Check back with me in
    2,500 millinnia and I'll recompute it for you."

    But if Jesus comes today I'll be ready for Him.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    When I say "how FAR" I don't mean "for how many days or years" would you cling to the PTR idea. Rather I mean how many of those inconsistencies - how many of those Bible-pinch scenarios would you be willing to ignore.

    It is very different from how long would one person hold to one opinion.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    //A first-first and a second-first that you call resurrection1 and resurrection2.//

    I knew you wouldn't agree; but I thought you could
    understand. (Oops, when I added the definitions
    I see I missed one of the key words)
    Here is your statement in terms
    that I defined:

    A first-first and a second-first that you
    call 'rapture2' and 'resurrection2'


    BTW, I hope you noted that I wasn't using
    Bible language when I defined rapture1, rapture2,
    resurrection1, and resurrection2.
    My 1 and 2 are to made a difference between
    the two meanings of the word 'resurrection'
    -- people use the different meanings. At
    lead here the number '1' means 'one;
    by contrast, some folks think 'first'
    means 'one' there are two words because there
    are two sets of concepts.

    BTW, did you notice that I believe that
    the pretribualtion rapture2 and the post-tribulation
    resurrection 2 BOTH include a rapture1 and
    a resurrection2 in their definition?

    BTW, did you notice that I believe that
    the pretribualtion rapture2 and the post-tribulation
    resurrection 2 BOTH happen the same day:
    the rapture2 at the start of the day
    and the resurrection2 at the end of the day?
    The day the pretribualtion rapture2 and the post-tribulation
    resurrection 2 BOTH happen is called:
    the Tribulation Period & the 70th Week of Daniel.

    So I see I'll have to show by all the scriptures that
    show the Bible divides up the SECOND COMING OF THE LORD
    into two parts by taking all the scriptures (which I'll list
    first) and telling what they call either the rapture2 or
    the resurrection2).

    BTW, there is a danger doing that.
    My clarifications will be damned by some people as
    being confusing. But I have ALWAYS found that
    people resist the truth I found - many times INSTEAD
    of telling the truth they found (the two might conflict,
    which most literalists have problems with???).
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    John. 5:28; John 6:39,40,44, & 54 telling us very clear the resurrection shall come on the LAST DAY of this present age at the coming of Christ. There is not a single verse gives us a hint that there are gap of time-span like 7 years or 1000 years between two resurrection anywhere in the Bible.

    Also, "the first resurrection" is apply to the saved people only, who believe in Christ have eternal life. "The first resurrection" pictured speaks of salvation -"have eternal life" in Christ.

    Also, these people who do not have the part of 'first resurrection', because they do not believe in Christ. What happen to them? They shall have their part of 'second death'.

    'Second death' is speak of everlasting punishment from God in lake oof fire, because they do not believe in Christ.

    That what Revelation 20:4-6 is all talk about.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I like your way of questioning the polls. You are well experienced in the poll indeed.

    But your post above sounds like another comedy in addition to your exegesis about Re 20:4-5 where you said the fornicators will be the Judges.
    Will the fornicators like the one in 1 Cor 5:5 rule over the saints and the martyrs? Then we must yearn for being Forncators all, we must pursue to be great Casanova's !

    Then you brought another comedy here.

    If the whole church believers are resurrected, will they be seen by the Unbelievers?

    Where is the statement on the scene of the Resurrection of ALL the NT church believers?

    The scene of resurrection of Unbelievers are well described in Re 20:11-15. Is the Believers resurrection less important than the Unbelievers' ?

    Why does Bible say " FIRST" Resurrection just before the 1000 years in Re 20:4-6?

    I am enjoying your profound and interesting comedy here, brother Ed !
     
    #68 Eliyahu, Oct 20, 2007
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2007
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I've seen the following method of argument that
    strained debaters use:

    1. Attack the other personally (thank you who are posting
    on this topic for not using that :applause:)

    2. the Bait & Switch con:
    this is where the con says one thing to 'bait' another
    and 'switches' to another (usually chearper or wrong).
    The classic on Religions Bulletin Boards (which I've been
    doing for 23½-years) is: call the bait
    a denomination a 'cult' (meaning 'don't agree with us')
    then switch to 'cult' (group controled by one person
    and nothing they say can possibly be right).
    We are familiar with the SDA (7th day Adventists) 'discussions' in
    discussions on this BB on the all religions debate forum.
    The 'bait' is that the SDA is a cult because they believe
    in worship on the 7th day of the week (aka: 'Saturday'
    after the false god Saturn) but I like to worship most
    on the 1st day of the week (which I call SONday
    but the world calls 'Sunday' after the false god:
    Sol Ivictus(usually pictured today as a yellow smiling face :) )

    The switch is that the SDA is a non-Christian group
    created by the Antichrist Pope and controled by
    (nobody can figure out who can personally control a
    world-wide group of some 15 million people???)
    anyway, you can't trust a word they say since we
    'switched'.

    3. But the one I started this essay about it that is a
    poor debating technique is acting like NOT UNDERSTANDING and
    whe one does not agree. Sometime this goes to railing against
    a person tying to simplify things. I read a book once (yes, I
    did) about how some words (these can be spoken, written,
    or signed) have different meanings.
    People talk with their own meanings. If two people are using
    the same meanings they can communicate. If two people
    are using different meanings, they can have communication troubles.
    Please don't yell "CAN'T UNDERSTAND' , read my explanations
    and ask questions about how I said I believe.
    BTW, I'm about three days behind (I know this topic has
    only been open two days, but there was a #1 topic over here
    that I'm still answering questions about.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=42747&page=35

    (that is the last page (page 35 of the topic).

    Search the page for a line of dashes, those are the
    reprinted posts, some of which I first wrote back in 1992 --
    15-years ago, you know. Most of the answers that people ask
    have been asked before, so my writings answer a lot
    of questions.

    4A. I've promised to post a writing about three scripture passages
    that show the two parts of the Second Coming of Jesus:
    the pretrbulation rapture2 & the post-tribualtion resurrection2.

    4B. I've promised to post a writing about all the different passages
    and the nomenclature they use for both
    the pretrbulation rapture2 & the post-tribualtion resurrection2

    (BTW, 'resurrection1', 'resurrection2' and 'First Resurrection'
    are all resurrections of the JUST in Christ.)

    4C. I've promised to raise 2 Grandchildren,
    be a Church Deacon, be the Lead Usher in a Church,
    teach a Sunday School class, be nice to my wife, ect.

    If the Lord taries His PreTribulation rapture2 (PTR)
    (a rapture1 directly following a resurrection1)
    I'll get it all done. If you re-ask, make sure you
    give me enough information so I don't have to waste
    time seaching for what the conversation is. Thank
    you for your consideration.

    4D. While you are being nice, you could be like
    Brother DeafPosttrib (DPT) and tell me what your
    stand is (he is a-mill & post-trib). Thank you.

    -Ed Edwards,
    futurist, pre-mill, pretrib blabber*

    *note - blabber = talks|| a lot

    || note - talks - a verbal, signed, or written communication
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I'm eternally serious, but thanks anyway.

    The Bible says //"FIRST" Resurrection just before the 1000 years in Re 20:4-6//

    because the FIRST Resurrection is completed in Revelation 20:4.

    There is one FIRST Resurrection composed of two parts:
    1A. the pre-tribualtion rapture1
    1B. the postribulation resurrection2

    There is one FIRST Resurrection on one day:
    (that day is 7-years long and called the Tribulation
    Period /Trib/, 70th Week of Daniel):
    1A. the pre-tribualtion rapture1 - at the start of the Trib
    1B. the postribulation resurrection2 -at the end of the Trib

    The multiple phase FIRST Resurrection is a type of
    resurrection - the resurrection of the just.

    Sorry if one can't figure out the logic of that.
    Try taking logic in school some day.
    Logic lets you take basic definitions (called undefined
    terms) and basic statements (now called assumptions*)
    that people agree on and show
    (if the logic is right) that there are other statements
    that can be made.

    Usually logic is taught in 9th or 10th grade Geometry
    in the USofA. You start out talking about points,
    lines, and planes and you end up with a lot
    of Plane Geometry logic facts'.

    * to the 19th Century they were called 'axioms'.

    If you start with People, the State, and citizen responsibilites
    you develop a logic of Government

    If you start with God, people, and salvation you
    develop a logic of religion.
    (Baptists think you should get your undefined
    terms from the Bible and your axioms from the Bible.)
    But I know that 80% of the math teaching in Secondary
    Schools in the USofA is done by incompetents
    who may not know about logic &/or set theory.

    Anyway, I tarry ....
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you mean when you talk about a pre-trib "rapture2" including a "rapture1" and a "resurrection2"???

    I have no idea what you are talking about there.

    I would have thought you had a pre-trib First Resurrection

    rapture1 and resurrection1

    AND THEN you would have a post-trib "First Resurrection" as in Rev 20

    resurrection2 missing the associated rapture

    What am I missing for your view?

    How can two events 7 years apart happen the same day?

    Pre-trib anything is always 7 years away from post-trib something in your view - is it not?



    The 70th week of Daniel like the 69th week of Daniel 9 is 7 years long.

    69 starts after 68 -- right after it.

    70 starts after 69 -- right after it.

    This is true with the 70 year prophecy in Dan 9 and each year starts right after the previous one.

    It is also true with the 70 week 490-year vision in Dan 9

    How in the world is 7 years "the SAMDE day pretrib AND posttrib"?

    As I have said repeatedly - the convoluted gyrations that your view is forced into to solve the problems it has - are astounding. How many of those jumps are you willing to make before saying 'hey! Wait a minute!"?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #71 BobRyan, Oct 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2007
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I'm going to answer this in my
    discussion of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
    and 1 Corinthians 15:35-53


    1Co 15:51-52 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Behold, I shew you a mysterie:
    we shall not all sleepe, but wee shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinckling of an eye,
    at the last trumpe, (for the trumpet
    shall sound, and the dead shall
    be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.)

    This is a beautiful picture of the pretribulation rapture2.
    It does not mention if the changes will be
    seen by unbelievers or not seen by unbelievers.

    Some of my pretribulation rapture1/resurrection1
    friends think there will be a full-scale nuclear war
    where the USofA and sub-Sarahan Africa get
    decimated (10% gone in the USofA) or duo-decimated
    (20% gone in sub-Sarahan Africa) by nukes from
    Russia & Ukraine (Kings of the North) and
    China, India, Iran & Pakistan (Kings of the East)

    Some of my a-mill post-tribualtion only friends
    say "last trumpet" here means post-trib.
    But they assume that '7th trumpet' in Revelation
    is 'last trumpet' here. That is an interesting
    assumption, but it leads nowhere
    (taunt - how come five people are picking
    on the pre-trib rapture2 guy? If i were like
    the KJV Only folk I'd claim that proves that
    pre-trib rapture2 is RIGHT. Tee Hee.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    //As I have said repeatedly - the convoluted gyrations that your view is forced into to solve the problems it has - are astounding. How many of those jumps are you willing to make before saying 'hey! Wait a minute!"?//

    you have misunderstood and misquoted
    I shall ignore your comment cause I don'thave
    time to answer it right now. I do have
    answers.

    //How in the world is 7 years "the SAMDE day pretrib AND posttrib"?//

    I keep explaining this.
    You have to right to say "I humbly disagree"
    I believe they happen the same hour.
    (But you need a scripture)

    The rapture2 is at the beginning of the Tribulation
    period day/week/7-years and the resurrection2
    is at the end of the Tribulation
    period/day/week/7-years.

    //The 70th week of Daniel like the 69th week of Daniel 9 is 7 years long.

    69 starts after 68 -- right after it.

    70 starts after 69 -- right after it.

    This is true with the 70 year prophecy in Dan 9 and each year starts right after the previous one.

    It is also true with the 70 week 490-year vision in Dan 9//

    And this told where in the Bible?
    Why does Revelation 9 mention the divisions?
    Why do you assume that they are stuck
    end-to-end. You got scripture for that.
    (Please don't assume that your assumptions
    are:

    1) never made, they were
    2) are more holy than mine, they are not
    3) give you a superior advantage, they do not.
    All they do is make things different).

    BTW, I'm not buying that you (a SDA) gets to use
    a purely Roman Catholic (RCC) concept that
    the ministry of Jesus was 3½-years. It was actually
    2 maybe onlly 1½-years. the 3½-years was 'assumed'
    in to explain the 70th Week of Daniel.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    //BTW, did you notice that I believe that
    the pretribualtion rapture2 and the post-tribulation
    resurrection 2 BOTH include a rapture1 and
    a resurrection2 in their definition?//



    Not sure what you mean when you talk about a pre-trib "rapture2" including a "rapture1" and a "resurrection2"???//

    My bad, I correct:

    Did you notice that I believe that
    the pretribualtion rapture2 and the post-tribulation
    resurrection2 BOTH include a rapture1 and
    a resurrection1
    in their definition?


    I make mistakes cause
    I get to writing so fast to respond to the five
    people questioning the things that were revealed
    to me from the Holy Bible.
    I would like to answer them all.
    But it will take time.
    If the Lord tarries, I'll get to them all.

    //I would have thought you had a pre-trib First Resurrection
    rapture1 and resurrection1//

    See, you got me figured out!
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Text that shows that two events seven years apart are Rapture and Resurrection and that this seven year period is called one day?


    //The 70th week of Daniel like the 69th week of Daniel 9 is 7 years long.

    69 starts after 68 -- right after it.

    70 starts after 69 -- right after it.

    This is true with the 70 year prophecy in Dan 9 and each year starts right after the previous one.

    It is also true with the 70 week 490-year vision in Dan 9//

    Dan 9:1-3 mentiones the 70 years -- no one on earth claims you can insert gaps of unknown time into that 70 year timeline.

    Dan 7 mentions 1260 day-years no one on earth claims you can insert gaps of unknown time into the 1260 day-year prophecy.

    Dan 8 mentiones the 2300 day-years no one on earth claims you can insert gaps of unknown time into that 2300 day-year timeline.

    Dan 9 starts with the 70 year timeline of Jeremiah - no one on earth claims you can insert gaps of unknown time into that 2300 year timeline.

    Dan 9 ends with the 70 week-weeks-of-years timeline. But here is where some people hope to insert gaps of unknown lengths of time into that 490 day-year timeline.

    Rev 9 makes no reference at all to slicing up the Dan 9 490 year timeline.

    See the above list were ALL Bible scholars on the planet are in agreement. In fact I believe that even you agree with that list.

    Daniel 9 says "in the midst of the week he is cut off" it does not say "at exactly 3.5 years to the very day"

    The term used is not mathematically precise to the exact moment.

    Hoever the end of the 69th week - 483 days -- is at the 483 year boundary from the building of the Temple to the start of the ministry of Christ.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    // BTW, did you notice that I believe that
    the pretribualtion rapture2 and the post-tribulation
    resurrection 2 BOTH happen the same day://

    //How can two events 7 years apart happen the same day?//

    When it is called by Daniel a week.
    I define the prophetic 'day' = the appropriate time.
    The appropriate time for the Tribualtion
    Period is 7-years = one week = 7 days = 1 day.

    //Pre-trib anything is always 7 years away from post-trib something in your view - is it not?//

    Yes, it is. The post-trib stuff happens on a 7-year schedule
    starting with the pretrib stuff. The pretrib stuff is
    signless & unexpected 'as a thief in the night'.
    The mid trib stuff is on a 3½- year schedule
    from the pretrib stuff postrib stuff .
    The post-trib stuff is on a 7-year schedule from
    the pretrib start and a 3½-year schedule from
    the mid-trib stuff.

    What I get from my interpertation of Matthew 4-44
    that no post-trib-only gets:
    There is NO SIGN of the pretribulation rapture2.
    The Tribulation Period (7 years = one day)
    is the BIG SIGN of the post-tribulation
    resurrection2.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    //Dan 9:1-3 mentiones the 70 years -- no one on earth claims you can insert gaps of unknown time into that 70 year timeline.//

    This is speaking of a continuous time
    of 70-calendar-years from the taking of
    the slaves from Israel to Babylon until
    some of them came back. I didn't claim
    there was a gap in it.

    //Dan 7 mentions 1260 day-years no one on earth claims you can insert gaps of unknown time into the 1260 day-year prophecy.

    Dan 8 mentiones the 2300 day-years no one on earth claims you can insert gaps of unknown time into that 2300 day-year timeline.

    Dan 9 starts with the 70 year timeline of Jeremiah - no one on earth claims you can insert gaps of unknown time into that 2300 year timeline.//

    Off hand I'm not familiar with these scriptures
    and have all my back burners full. So I'll have
    to pass on your point.

    //Dan 9 ends with the 70 week-weeks-of-years timeline. But here is where some people hope to insert gaps of unknown lengths of time into that 490 day-year timeline.//

    I've shown you how there is gap in Romans 11
    that perfectly explains the space between
    Daniel's 69th weeks and Daniel's 70th week.
    The Jews in Large did NOT accept Jesus as their
    Messiah 30AD when Jesus ascended
    to 70AD when the Temple was destroyed.
    So the Time of the Gentiles (unforseen by
    folks in the O.T.) beg'in. Some people colorfully
    say "God's clock ended for the Chruch Age,
    it will start again at the pretribualtion rapture2."
    Please don't leave Romans chapter 11 out of your
    prophecies.

    I would show you a comple analysis of Romans 11
    but my back burners are all full of projects.

    //Hoever the end of the 69th week - 483 days -- is at
    the 483 year boundary from the building
    of the Temple to the start of the ministry of Christ.//

    I agree. This means the degree to rebuild the
    temple was given in 450BC.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And so when Christ begins His ministry He announced that prophetic time had been fulfilled


    Mark 1:15 - "The Kingdom of God is at hand – the time is fulfilled"

    And so begins Christ's 3.5 year ministry in fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy.

    So far the exact matching anti-type fulfillment in the NT is far more "explicit" in fulfilling the prophetic components of Daniel 9 - using this explicit and direct approach - than all other proposed solutions. None of them contain the direct references and language for Daniel 9 as we have seen here so far.



     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    True. My argument is that all Bible timeline prophecies are contiguous. Each one forms a timline that will not survive the abuse of inserting unknown gaps of time into it.

    Other examples of these timelines --


    //Dan 7 mentions 1260 day-years no one on earth claims you can insert gaps of unknown time into the 1260 day-year prophecy.

    Dan 8 mentiones the 2300 day-years no one on earth claims you can insert gaps of unknown time into that 2300 day-year timeline.

    Dan 9 starts with the 70 year timeline of Jeremiah - no one on earth claims you can insert gaps of unknown time into that 2300 year timeline.//

    The point is that you have no stories about how we must insert uknown gaps of time into these timelines - and neither does anybody else.

    It is only with the 70 weeks that such stories surface.


    //Dan 9 ends with the 70 week-weeks-of-years timeline. But here is where some people hope to insert gaps of unknown lengths of time into that 490 day-year timeline.//

    Romans 11 makes no reference at all to the 490 years of Dan 9.

    So we at least agree on several things on this topic.

    Romans 11 contains no timeline at all. It predicts future events without actually providing any timeline at all -


    //Hoever the end of the 69th week - 483 days -- is at
    the 483 year boundary from the building
    of the Temple to the start of the ministry of Christ.//

    I agree. This means the degree to rebuild the
    temple was given in 450BC.[/quote]

    Or very near that point -- 457 as John Gill states -- (non-SDA non-Catholic).

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    BTW - I think you will agree that I never bring up the roots of the PTR rapture idea - nor do I try to associate it with the RCC. I just stick with the Bible problems that the PTR faces.

    Having said that - and since you bring this RCC origins idea into the thread -- I will make this one exception.

     
    #80 BobRyan, Oct 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2007
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