How does a person get saved?

Sgt. Fury go back and re-read Acts 2. I know you have probably read it a thousand times, but go back and take another look at it. I think you will discover that Peter is not preaching that Jesus "died on their behalf as their Substitute", which is the gospel message of everlasting life. But what Peter was preaching was that "they" KILLED the MESSIAH.

It was not a message of substitutionary death, but a message of guilty murderers.

They were asking what they could do to right their wrong and get their Messiah to come back.

That is not the message of everlasting life.

So again contextually Acts 2 is not talking about what must I do to be saved as it is in Acts 16. Two different messages to two different audiences in two different situations and circumstances.

 

So in order for their Messiah to come back they would all have to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Is this a fair representation of your take on Acts 2?

I'm having a hard time figuring out where you're coming from.

Jesus had told the apostles, including Peter, to "...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...", and "...that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Acts 2:38 has 3 of the 4 items bolded above (repentance, baptism, and remission of sins), and the only reason they would have asked what to do is that they believed the gospel message Peter had just preached (the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ).

To suggest that the Holy Spirit preached through Peter and the rest of the apostles something other than the gospel which Christ commanded them to preach is unthinkable. And yet, that is what you're suggesting, is it not?

I didn't see where Peter said anything about them getting their Messiah back. He did indicate the possibility of salvation in 2:21, though.

Were the Jews to be saved differently than the Gentiles? Is not the gospel for all men?

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, correct? I, because of the sins I have committed, am personally no less guilty of the death of Jesus Christ than were those adressed by Peter in Acts 2. Are you? Is anyone?

Of course eternal salvation was being offered in Acts 2.

Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

Well it looks like you've got it all figured out there Sgt. Fury. Who am I to tell you any differently. It's sad when folks won't get past their own denominational teachings to hold on to the traditions of man.

Acceptance of Jesus as the Christ is NOT the same message of everlasting life. I guess if you want to continue to think and believe that you are more than welcome. :wavey:

 

Before you give up on me, could you explain how you came to the conclusion you hold concerning Acts 2? I've read it with your view in mind, and I just don't see how you got there.

 

You will compulsively do good every day if you are a Christian. Much of it will be stuff you simply do not think about.

You are getting a lot of conflicting answers, and I am going to try to keep it `biblically simple' for you, yet thorough. As we go on, however, I want you to keep in mind that the New Testament was written in Greek. Also, my ways of expressing these truths are influenced by my time and encounters with several Christian groups.

1) At Acts 10:43b, Peter said of Jesus Christ “through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins” (ASV).

From where I sit, there can be no mistaking this. If a person believes on Jesus Christ, s/he will be saved. However, "believe" does not mean some simple assent.

In biblical faith on Jesus Christ, there are certain dispositions. First, Acts 16:31a says “Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved” (ASV|NASB). When we believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, that means we accept that He is the Boss.

That belief will involve obedience, which is a disposition where we submit our wills to His will. Hebrews 3:18b-9 has “to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were |not obedient|? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief” (NASB|BishB|ESV). “Believe” = be “obedient.”

When we believe on Jesus Christ as Lord, we realize that we must stop living our own way in discordance with His will. We then repent of living our own way. Mark 1:15 has “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (KJV). To "believe the Gospel" involves repentance.

When we realize that Jesus Christ is Lord, we realize that we ought to do as He taught. Before the time of Acts 11:26, Christians were called “disciples” in that “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” (NASB). Greek translated “disciples” is rendered “followers” in the ICB at Acts 11:26. The Greek here is plural for a Greek word meaning "one who follows one’s teachings."* Hence, as believers, we agree that what Christ taught is right, and should be followed.

Lastly, biblical faith involves turning to Christ for salvation. Acts 4:12 “And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved” (ASV). Romans 10:13 says “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (ASV). We must turn to Him as our hope of salvation.

Having discussed components of biblical faith, we repeat Acts 10:43b, when Peter said of Jesus Christ “through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins” (ASV).

2) Works will result from biblical faith. Ephesians 2:8-10 tells us "for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV| GenB| ICB| KJV).

Salvation is dependent upon "grace," which is when God does things for us despite lack of merit: we will never do fully and perfectly what God wants of us, so we depend on His grace to cover our flaws. He will extend His grace to us in salvation if we have biblical faith. Salvation is called "gift of God" -- it is not a transaction or exchange. We do not exchange any works for salvation.

However, the Bible is unmistakably clear that works should follow for anyone "saved through faith" -- as the quoted passage states. You see, when you have the attributes of biblical faith described above, it is going to affect what we do, and motivate us to do the works the Lord wants of us.

Sgt. Fury was good to point out baptism to us. That is a biggie. What is often not known among mono-lingual English-speakers is that there are at least two common ways that Acts 2:38 is translated. The second way is hard to do in English because of the nature of English grammar -- English is more word order-based than Greek, and also has fewer nuances words can take than Greek does. The second way teaches `repentance for remission of sins' with our obligation to be baptized inserted right in there. It is a powerful way to emphasize our duty to get baptized.

At Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus said Jesus said “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, |bautizad = baptize| them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, |enseñad = teach| them to obey everything I have told you...."** Christ told us to baptize "disciples." We do not baptize non-Christians, which is what would happen if people were not Christians before baptism; we baptize Christians. However, Christ expected His disciples to be baptized just as He expected them to obey Him. For this reason, I consider anyone who knows s/he is unbaptized, and chooses to remain unbaptized, a non-Christian -- I believe the Bible requires me to have that view. A person who is unwilling to be baptized will be equally unwilling to obey Him.

Another good work expected of Christians is confession of Jesus Christ as Lord vocally. But the big thing: Titus 3:8 has "I desire that thou affirm confidently, to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good |deeds" (ASV|NLT 1996, RSV 1952). Jesus said we would know who His followers are: "by their fruits ye shall know them" (ASV) from Matthew 7:20.

I am going to remember a children's song I heard when I was still attending a Baptist congregation. One of the stanzas was "If you're saved and you know it, then your life should surely show it." I understand now that the meaning of this stanza would not be clear to non-Baptists. The underlying, unstated assumption: we are saved by faith, so we have faith. The meaning: our lives should show our faith by what we do.

______
*Vine, et al, Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary, page 171 NT.
**NBV|RVA margin and translated|NBV|RVA margin and translated|ICB.

 

I'm not saying Darron is wrong about the alternate translation, but I'd question the "common" aspect of it. Here's Acts 2:38 in several versions, not all of which I'd use for much. There's even a Spanish version for those not limited to English.


Act 2:38

(ASV) And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(BBE) And Peter said, Let your hearts be changed, every one of you, and have baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will have the Holy Spirit given to you.

(CEV) Peter said, "Turn back to God! Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will be given the Holy Spirit.

(Darby) And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(DRB) But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(EMTV) Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(ESV) And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(GNB) Peter said to them, "Each one of you must turn away from your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, so that your sins will be forgiven; and you will receive God's gift, the Holy Spirit.

(GW) Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

(ISV) Peter answered them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

(JPS)

(KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(KJV+) Then1161 Peter4074 said5346 unto4314 them,846 Repent,3340 and2532 be baptized907 every one1538 of you5216 in1909 the3588 name3686 of Jesus2424 Christ5547 for1519 the remission859 of sins,266 and2532 ye shall receive2983 the3588 gift1431 of the3588 Holy40 Ghost.4151

(KJVR) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(LBLA) Y Pedro les dijo: Arrepentíos y sed bautizados cada uno de vosotros en el nombre de Jesucristo para perdón de vuestros pecados, y recibiréis el don del Espíritu Santo.

(LITV) And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(MKJV) Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(Murdock) Simon said to them: Repent, and be baptized every one of you, in the name of the Lord Jesus, for the remission of sins; so that ye may receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(RV) And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(Webster) Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(WNT) "Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(YLT) and Peter said unto them, `Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

 

HP: May I interject some thoughts here? The first though that comes to mind concerning any and every discussion regarding baptism, it to which baptism does it involve? I keep thinking that at one time I counted at least six or seven baptisms mentioned in Scripture. To me that one baptism all believers must enter into is the baptism into Christ. I for one certainly believe that can be accomplished millions of miles away from water.

My second question arises with your comment that a person unwilling to be baptized is one that is unwilling to obey Him. I find that as disturbing. I would have to count out some of the most spiritual men I have ever known within the Quaker or semi-Quaker movement. It also would count out of the kingdom men like George Fox, the red hot Quaker. I happen to believe that if anyone was willing to be obedient to his Lord, George Fox was one of them. I have witnessed the consistent holy lives of too many men and women that have never seen the physical waters of water baptism that have a keen love for the Lord and a desire to walk holy before Him. I personally see things differently than they do, but I consider them as my brothers and sisters in the Lord.

 

Hi Sgt. Fury.

In my use of "common," I am considering what I have seen in translations used in various parts of the world -- not just those of English-speaking countries. I am impressed by the time you took to quote a whole bunch of English translations, as well as a single Spanish translation.

However, that Spanish translation is not the most commonly-used translation in the Spanish-speaking world. Further, only a portion of the world uses English translations. Hence, when I was counting "common," I was counting more than just the English-speaking world.

Do the individuals cited know that they should go through water baptism?

If they do know that they should be baptized, and will not, I do not believe the passage quoted allows me to consider them Christians.

If they do not know, and would be baptized if they knew, the issue is an error in faithful following of Christ. Per Ephesians 2:8-10, we are saved by grace via faith. Grace will cover their mistake.

 

Hey Darron. Honestly, the various translations were all cut and paste from e-sword. Very little time expended, but I appreciate the atta-boy .

Your access to and understanding of translations in other languages is a benefit not available to me and many others, as well. Would you say that the English versions used by most of us reliably translate Acts 2:38, or is the common English translation a bit misleading?

 

Actually, Luther at least once preached that the only one thing we could do to receive salvation was be humble. Those were the kind of people God would save. Maybe living in Germany, that is why you heard something like it.

skypair

 

xdisciplex --- in case no one has mentioned this...

... All you have to do is believe-commit. That is, your relationship of belief involves giving of yourself as in marriage -- you don't "believe" and then walk away from marriage as God has defined it. And it is as dying to yourself, as in being dead and buried.

There's a preacher I just saw the other day Joseph Price (tried to check him out but his website is apparently not up). But he said a revealing thing. He said Christ died for us and Christ died AS us. That is, each believer was in Him when He died and when He arose. And isn't that so true! That is what we aver when we are baptized by immersion, right? End of my life -- beginning of His.

R.C. Sproul, William Evans -- men of all "stripes" will tell you under the heading of "Christian Doctrine" that conversion involves knowledge, assent, and appropriation (YOUR mind, emotions, and will which are YOUR spirit). Know what? Assent to what? Appropriate what? The gospel. Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for you so that you could enter into and "stand" in an eternal relationship with God (1Cor 15:1-4).

I hope this solves the "repentance" issues you have as well. Repentance in the "dead and buried" model of salvation is leaving the world behind in order to take up a new life in Christ -- a spiritual turnaround. The "marriage" model is similar. There will still be many available marital options unless you reject them all by espousing to Christ.

I hope this corrects any notions of "passive humility" as a means of salvation. :jesus:

skypair

 

Doesn't matter. Do what God calls you to do. Scripture says "Repent and be baptized... in the name of Jesus Christ..." Acts 2:38
Apparently that is one thing you CAN do that He can't do for you else He wouldn't have told YOU to do it.

skypair

 

HP, are you referring to Acts 11:18 with regard to repentance being God's work?

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

If so, I think we need to realize that repentance is commanded of all men, Jew and Gentile.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

This being the case, if we go back to Acts 11, where the brethren (who were Jewish) were just understanding that the Gentiles could become Christians just as they had, we can see that God has granted to the Gentiles the opportunity of repentance unto life, just as He did to the Jews.

God grants to men the opportunity to repent. Man must avail himself of it. God's sovreignty - Man's responsibility.

 

HP: I would only add that it is God that listens to the repentance of man and knows full well if indeed it is genuine and from the heart, and only accepts it (or grants it as acceptable and as such judged as fulfilling the condition of repentance) when it is sincere.

 

1. This position denies that the point of the Acts 2 outpouring of the Holy Spirit for which the evangelists in Acts 1 were told to wait -- has anything to do with preaching the Gospel and saving souls.

2. This position also denies that the work of the Apostles in Acts 2 is in fulfillment of the great commission in Matt 28.

3. This position assumes that "repent and be baptized" in Acts 2 should have BEEN followed by "and then the Messiah will come back once again to the Jewiish Nation" because it had no gospel/salvation purpose just a "Messiah return to Israel" purpose.

4. This position ALSO assumes that the MISSION and MESSAGE of the messiah "he shall save his people from their sins" is not really "The Gospel".

Clearly I can not agree to the degree in which that statement departs from scripture.

Easy -- it is called eisegesis. All you have to do is take prior-bias to the text of Acts 2 and bend it a little.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I also reject this view for all the same reasons and more.

I'd hoped to hear back from Seeking to understand how he arrived at his conclusions concerning Acts 2, but either I don't rate a reply, or perhaps he's not sure how he got there, either.

I guess we'll never know.

 

Not at all. However one must understand the context of the message. People today confuse the context of salvation and say that all of the Bible is talking about the same salvation and that is everlasting life and that is not so.

Acts 2 is NOT speaking of everlasting life. Again that is not the context. There is NOTHING in that text that talks about a substitutionary death. Peter is preaching that they are responsible for mudering their "King". That again is NOT the message that leads to everlasting life.

In your mind that may be so, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

That's EXACTLY what would have happened. Take a look at the story of Stephen. When he sees the Christ He is "standing" not sitting, showing that He is ready to return if Israel would only repent and be baptized. It didn't happen and so His return is still to come.

Again using "your" definition of "gospel" this statement may be true, however it holds no Scriptural weight to it. It's mere opinion.

Again nothing but "opinion" stated here.

Only by those that have been blinded to the Truth of Scripture. Folks there's no arguing what Scripture "actually says". And there is NOTHING in that text that "says" Peter was preaching the gospel of grace through faith apart from works. Not one single time did Peter ask them to "believe" or to have "faith" that Jesus died in their place.

We have to go on what is "said" not what we want it to have said.

Context has to be king or we can come up with whatever we want to and people will accept it as true.

 

Sgt. Fury I have learned, sometimes the hard way, that it is pointless in carrying on a conversation with someone that is set in their views and has no desire to change what they believe in. That is clearly the case with you so going further in conversation with you is only going to lead to someone saying something they shouldn't.

I didn't want you to look at Acts 2 from "my point of view". I just wanted you to look at Acts 2 with no pre-conceived idea of what is there and actually look at what the text says.

If you would honestly do that there is no way you can come to the conclusions that you have espoused, because they are simply not supported by what is "said" in the text.

You aren't going to agree with that, which is obvious, so there is no point in going forward is there? If there is I don't see a point.

By the way I got to this point by looking at what is "said" in the text. It's that plain and simple.

 

You have not said anything except "oh no it is not". Where is the actual exegesis of Acts 2 on your part SHOWING that baptism and repentance mentioned in Acts 2 has nothing to do with salvation??

"Show your work" IN the text. Simply stating "what you wish you found" in the text is not a form of compelling insight.

Again - you have not said anything. This was the perfect place to either show that NON-SALVIFIC evangelism (as you propose Acts 2 to be) IS the fulfillment of the Matt 28 great comission OR it was your place to SHOW that in Acts 2 the Disciples were saying "We have decided to delay the great comission and do som non-salvific non-evangelism for a while THEN after that go out and evangelize".

I.e. you need to "make a point".

I realize that you are proposing this speculative idea - but the point above is that what is "missing from Acts 2" is the VERY point you suggest!

Among all the "repent and be baptized" statements in the GOSPELS and NT -- for you to argue that THIS ONE is merely "repent and get the Messiah to come back to you again from heaven" is "missing".

Nothing is said in Acts 7 about "Christ ready to return" or "standing meand ready to return" anywhere in the NT.

In fact we know from Heb 8-10 that Christ STANDS as our High Priest making intercession for us - as His new role is after the resurrection.

Christ is STANDING in Rev 1 -- not about to return - about about to explain to John the events of the next 2000 years.

Each time you are pressed to show IN the text evidence for your views - you seem to show the text is MISSING some key part of your line of assumption.

Here again - instead of making a point - you simply say "I differ with you" without giving any evidence from scripture that the Gospel preached IN The Gospels is not "really the Gospel" as you have suggested.

Indeed - that statement taken by itself is just opinion. But that statement taken in context with the BIBLE POINTS made from Matt 28 and Acts 2 is "conclusion".

in Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan I find it quite funny that you are doing exactly what you are acusing me of doing. :laugh:

Nowhere IN THE TEXT does it SAY that baptism and repentence is for "everlasting life". So you sir have done nothing in the way of exegesis yourself.

All you have done is say look here this text is talking about salvation. And you use your definition of salvation and expect everyone to comply with it. Sorry but that is not exegesis either.

I have showed you IN THE TEXT that this passage is NOT dealing with everlasting life based on what the text SAYS. That IS exegesis.

I did make my point. My point was you were spouting opinion and only opinion. And that is STILL "my point". You can not tell me what I believe and what I don't believe. You can't say what my position does and does not do.

My position in no way denies the great commission, but allows the great commission to be exactly what Scripture intended it to me not what "man" has made it into.

That's why you have to compare Scripture with Scritpure.

Not everything is laid out in a neat little package as most of Christendom wishes that it was. We have to build line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. The study of Scripture is not an easy thing when it comes to the meat and strong meat of the Word, but Christnedom would have us believe otherwise sadly.

So I guess He just needed a stretch at that time huh? Okay.

No what I have stated is the gospel preached in the gospels accounts is the the gospel YOU have suggested it is. There's a big difference.

Again a conclusion in "your mind" and the mind of others if they think like you do, but if someone doesn't see things the way "you" do it is merely opinion regardless of whether Scripture is used or not. I do not agree with you and more importantly Scripture does not agree with your view of what the gospel is. Therefore it matters not whether you use Sripture or not to back up your opinions they are still opinions.

This will be my last post to you because I'm not going to get into a back and forth with you. I have observed you for some time and you have no intention of changing your views whether someone shows you Scripture that contradicts what you say or not. And that's fine, but a conversation between us is not going to be fruitful and therefore pointless.