Are the Jews still God's people?

Yes it is...is the Lord a "thief in the night"

How can you physically and literally burn a "work"

 

So Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, according to you is telling a lie?
He is not being factual.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

 

I can't say that I've ever heard anyone say this verse was figurative.

John McArthur disagrees with you, as do the notes in the Life App. Bible, Strong's says "consume wholly".

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I thought you guys took things literally?

 

GE:
If you want to be 'literal', HP, be 'literal' consistently!
"I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee" --- two generations; no more = "for an everlasting possession"

Paul though, speaks of this 'seed' in the Singular, as of Christ; therefore it should not be understood literally; and so also not the word 'everlasting'.

"the land wherein thou art a stranger" ---- for as long as a stranger in the land; that was not for 'everlasting'.

".... all the land of Canaan ...." never, had been the possession of all Israel or only some of Israel. In fact, Hebrews says Abraham - or for that matter any believer - never possessed as much as a hand's width of all Canaan.

".... I will be their God" for everlasting? Israel often rejected God for their God, and the last time in Jesus Christ, they lost God for their God for always. So their 'everlasting' covenantal relationship with God was of but short duration.

 

Many people have the wrong view on earth and God's plan not to only redeem mankind, but creation. I don't hold that against y'all

...am curious how you can literally burn a work, though...

 

LeBuick:
"A non-believing Jew is who we bring to question in this thread. By your theory, a non-believing Jew is the same as a non-believing gentile and the Church which I don't believe is right."

GE:
In Galatians Paul at length argues how he as a Jew first had to become (like) a Gentile in order to be saved by grace through faith --- not as a Jew; but as if an uncircumcised. In fact therefore, Paul is precisely arguing "a non-believing Jew is the same as a non-believing gentile".

 

But God is a spirit and in case you didn't notice, His promises are spiritual. We were not physically grafted into Israel or the vine, we were spiritual included.

 

You sure that passage means all of Israel to include those who rejected Christ?

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

No, Paul is not telling a lie. It is your interpretation of what Paul said that isn't factual. What Paul said is 100% correct. You're just reading it wrong (in my view).

 

AMEN... Great post!!!

And to add, if Paul thought Israel was saved, why would he take the time to pry for their salvation?

Ro 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

We appreciate that...

 

AMEN again Brother... No improvement can be made to that post... :thumbsup:

 

oops, that should be ad. not bc.

The claim is pretty easy to validate by looking into the works of Chafer or most any other person specializing in Church History.

Here is a good site to see what I'm speaking of. The site itself isn't authoritive but he quotes the works of these men who are consider quite authoritive and sets forth the names of the early church fathers as well.

Such as these:
Peters states regarding the above: "These all lived between A.D. 1-100; John, it is supposed -- so Mosheim, etc. -- died about A.D. 100. (All these are cited by Papias, who, according to Irenaeus, was one of John's hearers, and intimate with Polycarp. John is also expressly mentioned by Justin. Now this reference to the apostles agrees with the facts that we have proven: (a) that the disciples of Jesus did hold the Jewish views of the Messianic reign in the first part of this century, and (b) that, instead of discarding them, they linked them with the Sec. Advent)."

10. Clement of Rome A.D. 40-100
11. Barnabas A.D 40-100
12 Hermas A.D 40-150
13 Ignatius A.D. 50-115
14 Polycarp A.D. 70-167
15. Papias A.D. 80-163


None can be cited in this century to be against The Premillennial view.

Pre-Mill Advocates of the 2nd Century:
1. Pothinus A.D. 87-177
2. Justin Martyr A.D. 100-168
3. Melito A.D. 100-170
4. Hegisippus A.D. 130-190
5. Tatian A.D. 130-190
6. Irenaeus A.D. 140-202
7. The Churches of Vienne and Lyons - a letter A.D. 177
8. Tertulian A.D. 150-220
9. Hippolytus A.D. 160-240
10 Apollinaris A.D. 150-200


None can be cited in this century to be against Premillennialism. The common belief of the Church was Chiliastic (Premillennial).

Pre-Mill Advocates of the 3rd Century:
1. Cyprian A.D. 200-258
2. Commodian A.D. 200-270
3. Nepos A.D. 230-280
4. Coracion A.D. 230-280
5. Victorinus A.D. 240-303
6. Methodius A.D. 250-311
7. Lactantius A.D. 240-330


There were only four in this century that opposed the Premillennial view:
1. Caius (or Gaius), wrote about A.D. 210
2, Clemens Alexandrinus, died A.D. 202, great influence on Origin
3. Origin A.D. 185-254
4. Dionysius A.D. 190-265

 

HP: Allen, first, tell us in a nutshell just what you see this ‘pre-mill’ view as consisting of.

I have to admit that I had to smile when I read the list of Pre-Mil Advocates of the first century. Maybe you could help us. Start with Andrew. How is it established that he was pre-mil in the sense you are using the term?

 

Wow, Allan - thanks for providing this and for the link! You backed up what I said earlier in this thread with historical facts, way to go! :thumbs:

Of particular interest is this paragraph:

I wish there was a way to save your post for future discussions bashing pre-millenianism. Not that the other side will take the Early Church Fathers' word for it. :tear:

 

One question LE, did you notice a name conspicuously missing from the list of 1 Century names?

Where is the Apostle Paul's name? Is this to imply all the Apostles didn't agree?

 

HP: I thought you were going to ask about Jesus. :smilewinkgrin:

 

I assume Chiliasm is the same as pre-mil?

I am not aware of anyone on this board who does not believe that Christ will return and instead looks for a world conquering church.


Also, I would like to know how you can prove that the disciples were pre-mil. (oops, sorry. This one belongs to LE)

 

I did originally then edited my post since I know they would call foul... :thumbsup: