Eight Years of Iraq War Cost Less Than Stimulus Act

Are you reading the posts here?

My alternative is not the issue.

Crabby's contradictions are the issue.

 

CTB has made no contradiction. All he said is he might be wrong about his belief that some wars are justified. I'll say the same thing: I believe that there is such a thing as a just war, but maybe I'm wrong. There is no contradiction. Now, could you answer the question I asked you?

 

Let's look at his words and see if you are correct...

Then Crabby makes a sharp turn around when he says this...

Later in his confusion Crabby decides to double back...

Crabby forgets where he is and makes another u-turn...

And then another u-turn...

Completely lost now, Crabby wants us to appeal to secular logic instead of Scripture...

Crabby has contradicted himself on this issue several times in this thread as I pointed out to you.

You should ask Crabby - it's his arguement. He is so invested in it that he is taking both sides. :laugh:

Perhaps you can find a way to make your question fit the OP topic.

 

Look, I admit I don't have logged all the research I've done on many issues which I bring up here: I don't expect you to believe me even if I did: You have to do your own research. As another poster posted his rebuttal.... I'm respective of that... even if I'm not convinced that the answers we've been given are the full disclosure concerning the incidents of 9-11.

I will say this.... I frequently spend 8 hours or more a day on the internet... both listening to radio programs which have interviews with various experts and eye witness accounts... often giving hints at other key search terms which I conduct checking out the credentials of the persons and take from the content of subjects discussed. These have often lead me to government documents as well as others sources.............. which confirm much of the basics which create my skepticism. I don't know how to save whole web pages.... or I might have a substantial volume of links and material to post and present: (I'm not solely referring to the 9-11 here.)

It is an easy thing to call someone's bluff... even more so if that person admits they have not been able to collect and collate all the information they've read in documents, governmental publishings, science digest, internet searches, books, and radio interviews which were challenging.... not soft: The main stream media only skirts most important subjects.... and generally focuses on distraction type news. Often they even attempt in an underhanded way, to create their own news by creating impressions or frankly showing their attitude and presenting opinions..... before they do any real investigation.

The truth is...... the Bible is true and absolute... if your faith is based on the God and Savior as presented in the Bible, you cannot deny it without casting doubt on your faith. The truth is much of the values presented in the foundational documents of our government can be found based on teachings found in the Bible. Does this mean our founding fathers were all Christians? No. But it does mean that many or all of them had a great understanding and acceptance of its practical teachings and instructions and had assimilated its values as values for their living and for society as taken from the most revered book of spiritual instruction present in their time.

Regarding the subject of this thread: It is amazing how many continue to blame our current economic condition on what many call "Bush's War" when the bailouts and the stimulus have done more to increase our debt ......and our Congress has just voted in a massive health care bill which will necessitate the rationing of health care... and bog down the medical community in paperwork to iron out new regulations which aren't yet in place and which will be ongoing .... trying to avoid those areas which would create accusations of fraud or failure to comply and exorbant fines, and tie up their records needed for active practice and legal liabilities to defend against charges..... not to mention the legal consult fees which many will incur just trying to get credible legal opinion to navigate the regulation.

Here's a new one for all of you: Cap and Trade has already begun.... even in the absence of law.

 

I am not calling into question that you have studied, but Ido want to know what you mean by stop playing their game. You must have had something in mind. It's like when you preach. You get to the invitation and tell people we want them to do something. We need to be specific.

You made the post. I am not accusing, just asking.

 

Not Playing the Game -Part 1

Your question is a fair one considering that I made an action statement without any explanation:

What I meant about 'stop playing their game' is....
For starters..... Complain to MSM whenever they present only partial information decided with a slant.... with as little professionalism or objectivity as might be expected from a poster on a forum: One posting here is not held to the same level of accountability as one whose employment pays them to be on site or investigate behind the scenes... and present facts... not opinion or fiction; and if they don't have the answers ....that's okay to be honest rather that use conjecture to fill in the blanks. Perhaps we should also talk to the sponsors of news programs: Another thing...... refuse to let MSM determine all your entertainment needs... Find other forms which keep the mind active... reading a nove/ mystery/ fiction.... is far preferable to some of the stupid stuff filled with immoral inuendo, forced comedy, etc., which passes for entertainment..... and tends capture our attention, everytime we turn on the t.v. and numb us into passive listening.... almost hypnotic.... without practicing our critical thinking... no matter what the content of the program. For example... it is not only a misnomer.... but it is a fact.... and the oil gusher in the gulf is referred to as 'an oil spill' and is used by some to heighten our anxiety about 'fossil fuels'. But who asks........... how did this artesian well resemble a 'spill' which is usually a term applied to a finite and known quantity... which was not the case? Accuracy in language goes a long way either to relieve anxiety and/or alter the impression. To call oil a "fossil fuel" suggests.... just how did dinosaurs and vegetation get over a mile below the surface of the ocean... and deeper in the crust than several miles... to be buried in such quantity as to product oil? What seems obvious to me is that oil and natural gas is a process... perhaps still a mystery.... of God's design and provision for the energy needs of man and a natural ongoing process continuing to occurr inside the earth and not the result of an ancient prehistoric world as designed in the imagination of Darwin and the evolutionist who followed after his 'good news' for the godless masses. When a celebrity dies.... like Michael Jackson, or Nichol..whats her name... or gets busted ....like Tiger Woods and his infidelity... how much stirring does it take when it ceases to be entertainment..... and why does the main news continue to dwell on this and omit other news.... when the other programs ....intended for gossip and entertainment .... are already filled with it? ......Attending a childs ball game is far more relaxing and means more to a family member or friend who knows your a fan encouraging him than sitting passively in front of the t.v..

Not 'playing the game' may mean..... home schooling your children.... or... taking time to see what they are learning and helping them find additional material... either purchased or in the library..... which add information which may be ommitted in class... or which is research that helps them to bring challenges to the classroom and stirs the teacher to think instead of being a prisoner to the limits of the text books and the slant which is presented in the textbooks. Refusing to "play the game" may mean challenging why, when school budgets are being cut due to depressed tax revenues... or else taxes must be raised... inquiry how often and why are text books changed so often... and participating in reviews of comparing old with new to see if the changes in the text books are really so significant as to justify the expense of change. (I remember textbooks used to be checked out to students each year.... with a grade on a stamped form on the inside book cover... and at the end of the year, the text book was turned back in ....and a grade regarding the used and marks and any destruction which took place.. noticed on the book back. Any abuse which exceeded what was considered to be excessive of normal use and care was charged to that child's family. Parents were informed ahead of time that this was school policy....and were expected to assist the child in respecting the use of school tools and to maintain discipline in the home to help children respect one another's property. What values this taught and encouraged.)

Another way to 'stop playing the game' is to watch what happens locally in your city counsel meetings, country commissioner meetings, school board meetings, water board meetings. Sure, it is impossible to attend every one... in fact it may not be possible to pick just one favorite to monitor and attend every meeting... but if one networks with others in their community and is active in showing up regularly to put our elected officials on notice that every time they change a zoneing code, or decide to acquire a piece of property, or add another building or modify an existing one, or change an ordinance which will impact everyone the same and exact large fines and even assess compliance fees if a resident is unable to comply with the 'duty' required.... to insure that these are fair considering the variable needs and use of owners within the boundaries of such ordinances... or else the ordinance specifies those areas exempted, and/or persons deserving of exemption and excluded due to conditions making it impossible to comply.

Refusing to 'play the game' may mean informing our leaders... both local, state, and national, when they 'do good' but also informing them when we do not agree with their action, and clearly and unemotionally stating why.

Refusing to 'play the game' may mean attending a party caucus to witness and learn about the dynamics of control and who are the party leaders when one is registered in a particular party.... and informing others of what you learn. Not 'playing the game' may mean becoming active in a third party movement...... there really are so many to pick from although few will offer a contest in the primary and most will not even offer a significant slate accross all elected offices in the general election.... still.... the independent voter is then adding the factor of unpredictability to the influence trusted by the two major parties, and, depending on the emphasis of the independent parties platform or position... is creating a particular focus on certain areas which both major parties must consider if they wish to capture this independent vote.

Refusing to 'play the game' may mean complying with official inquiries, but, demanding proper identification and politely, but firmly, requesting and expecting official explanation before giving any information: It could mean asking for documentation or court orders before allowing enterance to property or home: It may mean exercising your right to privacy by invoking the limitations on privacy notifications presented to you by such institutions as hospitals or medical care to restrict the content of your records to only be shared as needed with your insurance provider and between those involved in the direct care and consult on your case: While this does not mean others wont see your records... it does create a degree of placing them on notice that you may not be too friendly over a careless leakage of personal and private information. In other words 'not playing the game' doesn't mean failing to submit to authority..... but making a real attempt to determine the extent of authority another person has before, and their lawful jurisdiction before submission.

Not 'playing their game' may mean such a simple thing as singing the national anthem when lead by the 'soloist' instead of just passively listening. I've just started doing this this year and find that often others nearby will join in so I'm not alone. (Antedotally, the first occassion happened when at our electric co-op meeting, the computer generated soloist program failed 1/3 into the anthem: A restart of the program was not successful. I felt pained until it flashed through my mind to stand up where I was... and start swinging my arms widely as if leading a chior.... and motioning my fingers in a 'come here' type mime.. others joined with me and most everyone sang the anthem with me.) Another way of 'not playing their game' may be as simple as reverently but quietly audible, bowing one's head and reciting the "Lord's Prayer" which many people know and quite a few will join in .....if nothing else than out of habits from their litugical services..... thus it makes a statement..... if nothing else..... "in this moment, I identify with Jesus Christ." If enough people join in.... it may be that anyone offended or wishing to levy charges may be discouraged by the numbers.
continued....

 

Not Playing the Game -Part 2

continued--
"Not playing the game" may mean being willing to take a calculated risk that one may be charged for breaking the peace.... and may have to take a tour of the houskow ....or possibly bear a fine ...if the authorities succeed in making charges. (But, one has to wonder, what law is broken.... when any good law is based on morals.... and how can a private prayer in a public place be immoral: It may offend others.... but as long as it is unsolicited and voluntary and is not audible except to those in close proximity.... and lasts a limit of 30 seconds.... it would be hard to prove that it was a disruption: I've heard people with a coughing fit which lasts longer than that.) Interestingly.... I heard the 'good news' that some school children visiting the monuments in DC.... decided to sing the national anthem. A security guard told them they couldn't do that: Their response from the several members were variable...; 'why can't we sing the anthem', 'isn't this America?', 'I thought this was a free country', etc... and then they sung it again and again.... and bystanders who were visiting applauded the youths and joined in the song.

The thing is.... our founding documents gave the government to US and not to elected officials or the servants employed by them to serve us: This does not mean we should be disrespectful.... but it does mean we should be questioning their power more than we do when they pass laws which exceed the powers granted to them through our constitution and clearly don't represent our interest or the representation of us for which they were elected or employed. The caveat to all of this is that is it essential for all of us of faith, who are willing to 'not play their game'..... is to keep the balance of serving God first... and doing everything we can to stand morally upright before God or a willingness to make a quick correction, and let Him lead above the powers of men. This doesn't mean we wont possibly face some difficulties, but it does mean we can be an encouragement to others to do and be what we're supposed to be.... children of King Jesus .....under His authority first and fearful of no others and what they may do to us. Remember..... the government we were given is meant to be in us and originating from us: When the people are morally contained and exercise self restraint.... and their freedoms, God given... they keep their liberty: When people submit without question to every suit declaring 'authority' which is against and exceeds the law of the land which declares the limits to their powers.... it encourages tyranny and more subjection until resistance is either too great for them to contain.... or they withdraw their excesses. "Not playing their game" is not a position of violence nor is it passive: It is exercising opportunities when presented with opportunity... and developing increased sensitivity to align ourselves with others in support... when they take the lead in something which we can agree.

Another way to 'not play their game' may be refusing telephone solicitations for charity and other causes.... and refusing to answer survey questions. 'Not playing their game' may mean refusing those 'bonus cards' or frequent shopper cards for tracking your spending habits and brand loyalties: Limiting credit cards and debit cards by which purchases may be tracked to your particular marketing habits.... use cash and not checks whenever possible for the same reason.

If, like me, you happen to be an Internet "Junkie" and are constantly running down rabbit holes to find the most credible information in searches... choose a search program such as 'http://www.startpage.com' for your internet searches instead of google, bling, or other search sites which track your IP address with you search queries. (Antedotal to this... I discovered in my browser history, most search engines record not only the pages I open but also the topic, title, or person I googled.... but, although startpage was recorded in the history... the title of the search was not recorded... only under other history was the specific pages actually opened recorded. Of course all of this history can be erased from your browser..... but startpage doesn't record what you were looking for: It would have to be ferreted out and then only guessed at by searching your history. Since other search engines record yuor IP address and searches, it makes little difference if you erase browser history: on these engines it is recorded what you searched for .......and some will even market ads by pop-ups or ads appearing on page based on any particular marketing interest you've given hint at through your searches. If ever you were the target of a snoop, some information concerning your Internet habits may be profiled based upon obtaining your IP address through your internet provider without even having to sequester your computer for investigation. Not that anyone here would have a need for secrecy... but it is a matter of maintaining your right to personal privacy as though you should be suspect. .....who would even want to know about 'you' or 'me' unless they are themselves suspicious and paranoid about our attempt to break out of the expected norm of predictability? What even gives 'them' such right..... curiosity? voyerism? homeland security?.... makes this power greater than our right to privacy? Are we so fearful as to give up our rights... or is their demand to know all about us so necessary to our peace and stability to wilingly become a party to our own exposure for whatever their purpose may be .....now or in the future ......to 'profile' us?)

Another way to 'not play their game'.... learn what you can to do what you can for yourself instead of purchasing the services of others. Uncle Sam can tax you on your purchases of supplies for personal use and on your wages.... but government can't tax you on the money you save by "doing it yourself". Caveat.... sometimes its more costly to correct an unskilled DIY than it is to hire a person to do a job their already skilled at.

One more way to 'not play their game'.... consider planting and landscaping your yard with fruiting and nut trees or hard wood trees instead of the popular ornamental trees: plant your flower garden with food bearing vegetables and herbs instead of just bulbs and flowers. If a neighbor complains how your contributing to the community going 'down', offer him your fresh 'organic' food and see if he doesn't convert..... just maybe.

Don't 'play the game' by being unprepared for a reasonably anticipated disaster. This may mean having several weeks or months of food supply; water or a filtration system through which you can purify long term stored wate; an extra supply of essential medications if health is dependent on them; a container of extra fuel if you have safe area to store separate from house; an extra sump pump if you have a basement with a potential for flooding (i.e. may not be in a flood plane but a major water line break could necessitate its use); smoke and carbon monoxide alarms and several fully charged fire extinguishers... and a water hose; essential papers and will and a plan for what you should take with you if you and your family received a short notice to evacuate; if possible, extra cash on hand for emergency use; an inflated spare tire, jumper cables, and a portable 12 volt air pump and air guage; a cell phone; some means for self protection: first aid kit, a good first aid book and perhaps a laymen's guide related to symptoms, illness, and care.... and when seeing a doctor may be an emergency vs practical advice..... just for starters.

Another way to 'stop playing their game' is to refuse to join in or promote approval through our silence when others ridicule those who stand for their rights, or joining the popular persecution when folks question authority and we aren't given the full facts; and join and identify with those if we see them giving peaceful resistence in a just cause... even when it may be unpopular.

I'm not saying that one can or should use any of these ways to 'not play their game' but that these are some thoughts which occurr to me in answering your question, to help get you started in thinking how you might decide how you could effectively choose 'not to play their game'. I hope in these ideas you can see that I'm not promoting violence but, instead, promotiing that each of us do what we can to hold to or take back as much responsibility for ourselves as we can.. and to become more aware and sensitive to areas in which God gave us liberty and where our government is limited by law in its power to control and by our knowing our rights and exercising them over attempts to limit us is the best way to keep them.

 

Thank you. You gave a lot of helpful ideas. I hadn't thot about the startpage one. You gave an approach plan to dealing with what many of us see.

I can see you have thought through alot of the important areas.

 

Get familiar with you foundation of faith by regularly reading and studying for personal instruction and guidance in daily application and for communing with God in prayer and worship. Commit your life to Jesus as Lord and your daily walk submitted to His will and seize the courage to exercise the liberty you have in Him. Then, get familiar with the Constitution and the duties it specifies to each branch of government as the scope of their power and limitations upon that which is not specified are rights retained by the states or to the people:

One such right includes how you choose to raise your children and to determine the beliefs taught and the values exercised within your home. Other rights include your right to choose your medical care and your choice of participation and your choice of diet, the right to use your property and assets on it for your good. You have the right to be honestly informed of any investigational medicine or practice, of its potentials for risks and benefits.... and any alternatives which are available.... before consenting to treatment or participating in a study. Unfortunately, you also may have to be willing to go beyond what is fed by media hype or look through some so-called 'experts' to hidden pressures to spin according to their involvement and personal interest in a promotion.

You should have the right to refuse medication forced on you through vaccination or water additives..... such as fluoride: Why is it that consuming more than a half inch of toothpaste by a child is cause for concern due to the fluoride content and merits a called to poison control.... but the community water supply can have water treated up to 1ppm of fluoride.... without knowing how much individuals may drink in a day or age adjustment: fluoride.... which isn't allowed to be dumped into the river or oceans as an industrial waste product... is allowed to be passed through such systems for showers and flushings of toilets, even more than is beneficial through drinking, into the sewer treatments and into the waters of creeks, rivers, and oceans: Fluoride is not safe enough to dispense for ingestion over the counter, but must be obtained through a physician's prescription... but the government will promote the disposal of this industrial waste into the public water supply as a 'nutrient additive' without fully disclosing to the public the risks and associated tooth, bone and mental anomalies which it may cause... even an increase in childhood bone cancers.... and allow water treatment personnel to be in charge of putting it in our water without the license of a pharmacist to judge the dispensing of this medication.

You see..... we are not taught to think... we are taught to accept what we are told and take certain information presented by media or 'experts' as fact. We accept as being true the paradigm we've been given.... we sit passively in front of a t.v. to watch a show, comedy, or movie..... and then do what it has conditioned us to do when watching a documentary or news program. Teachers reward the student as compliant when he sits in the classroom quietly and passively and asks no questions and does his assignments. The child who is curious, energetic, gifted, and questioning.... must have something wrong and be suffering from a medication deficit... and need a diagnosis and a prescription to 'calm' him down.

Employers reward the employee who does as he's told... even when its done wrong and may require time and money to correct... more than the employee who wants to know the reasoning behind a process of doing things a certain way: However, the employee who asks no questions and makes mistakes without knowing why or what he needs to correct... is, frankly, passively engaged with his work.... whereas the employee who learns more than the passive 'doing his job' is in a better position .....in the long run, to become beneficial to the company because he knows the value of why he does what he does and may be better positioned to be of assistance in areas of critque, foresight of problems, and adding to innovations and inventions.

However, in the paradigm of this current world system.... he and the active and curious child in the classroom, are more likely to be treated as trouble makers: Why? Because knowledge makes a man unfit to be a slave..... so it's to the benefit of 'control' for the boss, the teacher.... and even government's control, when we assume the position of being 'passive'. Even some pastors feed into this paradigm, when they are curtly dismissive or offended by persons who bring their questions or concerns to them without a willingness to give thoughtful consideration and being helpful in finding the answers or directing to sources which do have the answers.

So... the bottom line..... know the foundation of your beliefs.... and know your rights under God.... to be submissive and accountable to Him.... maintain the wholesomeness of your standing... and become so familiar about the limitations placed upon the powers of our government.... that you are capable of asserting your rights and support the rights of others who may be doing the same. Remember... the highest law and the fullfillment of all law is contained within the charge.... to love and honor God with all your might and serve only him..... and to love your neighbor as yourself. If we are faithful in the performance of this.... how is it that a government can make a higher and more powerful law based upon a just cause or reason.... which is more restrictive and enforce it upon a people who God has made free?


God bless!