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Arminian Weaknesses reflect Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Van, Mar 31, 2011.

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  1. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Yet you are either unwilling or unable to address the technical argument I presented earlier on that very passage. All we get is "nuh uh!" or "liar, liar, pants on fire!"

    I'd be very interested to see you address my post, in a technical way, pointing out the intricacies of the Greek language, its usage, and its syntax.

    The Archangel
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Not sure why your think "he knew about beforehand" is passive? God is the actor and he obtained the knowledge beforehand.
     
  3. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Guess I will have to wait to find out what kinda hermeneutic principles Van follows.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Give me the thread and post number where you presented your view of the grammar, and if I do not find my response, I will copy your post and address it. Just claiming something great has been done in the unreferenced past is without merit.
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The Calvinists have presented their rules for bible study and I have presented mine: (1) understanding the grammar, and the English words, (2) determine the underlying Greek words and the range of possible meanings, (3) look at how the word is used in every place in the bible, (4) find the meaning or fewest meanings that fit with every usage, based on the context of each passage.
     
    #85 Van, Apr 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2011
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Curious, hasn't that already been done by the scores of translators over the centuries in giving us God's Word in our own languages? What is special or different about your approach compared to theirs?
     
  7. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    God's election is based on His foreknowledge of our free will choices. It's in the bible. Give Calvin a break and look to the Word of God for a change!
     
  8. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    ...and then Robert has to show up...

    Actually, for the record, I don't own Calvin's institutes or commentaries. I don't even think I've ever read them. They certainly weren't required reading in Seminary.

    No, what I have done is exegesis, pure and simple and it hasn't been based on bit in anything Calvin has said.

    The Archangel
     
  9. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    I'm not suggesting the translators are wrong. I'm suggesting they've done their job--to bring the original text into a different language. Even the most simple crossover between languages still must be explained, however.

    Van's explanation of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is not supported by the grammar of the passage (the Greek grammar, that is). Any pastor's job or interpreter's job is to say: This is what the text says, this is what it means, this is what we do with it--Reading, Exposition, Application.

    The translation only does step one for you. It is up to the expositor to do steps two and three.

    The Archangel
     
  10. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    See here:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1664732&postcount=33

    The Archangel
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Webdog, it is interesting how Calvinist present themselves as scholars, and anyone who holds a different view as flawed both in character and challenged in our capacity to actually understand scripture. My view of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is actually based on the grammar, the Calvinist view is based on saying the noun should be viewed as a verb and thus connected with the adverbial clause "through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." Calvinistic scholarship reflects an ends driven agenda to pour their doctrine into scripture.

    James 2:5 says God chose the power of this world, but the Calvinists say no, what it really means is God chosen people who happened to turn out power, throwing out James whole argument in the effort to rewrite scripture.

    Or 1 Peter 2:9-10 where folks were chosen, but did not become chosen people until saved. It is endless twaddle.
     
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Calvinists insist that the elect (and that includes many regenerate Arminians) are saved in time. That's long after they were chosen --which was before the world was formed. What Calvinist says anything different?
     
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    You are the one who needs to give Calvin a break Bobbie.

    Are you capable of ever saying something remotely edifying? Can you ever not mention Calvinism or John Calvin in any post? Or,if so,say something positive for a big change. You openly admit you haven't read anything by him -- but you are so very willing to trash his character in almost every post. It sounds like you are proving the biblical doctrine of total depravity is in fact true.
     
  14. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Ludicrous. Your grammatical understanding is flawed. I certainly did not, nor have I suggested that a noun should be viewed as a verb.

    Again, I would hope you might interact with my presentation (on another thread) of the grammar of the passage.

    The Archangel
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    "This is the downfall of your interpretation of this verse: Since the clauses are not adverbial (which would answer "how") and since these clauses are, in fact, dative clauses of the dependent type, you have no standing to try to determine "how." The text of this verse doesn't address the question."

    The Archangel


    There are no adverbs in the passage? en + dative indicating manner is adverbial thus "through (en) sanctification (dative) describes the manner of God's choice, and [through (en)] faith (dative) describes the manner of God's choice.

    The verb is Aorist, indicating the Thessalonians in view had been chosen, but does not rule out that God continues to choose people in the same manner, just not as first fruits.

    Either reading -as first fruits or from the beginning - does not alter my understanding, but as first fruits more clearly puts the timing of the choosing as during their lifetime, I like that version best. :) as to the clause from the beginning not providing the time of the action, and therefore not adverbial, seems like a moot point.

    Yes, you can agree with me that we were chosen for salvation, that is how the NASB puts it. That gives us the purpose of God's choice.

    I will not dispute whether the datives are datives of manner or of means, both relate to how God chose and thus are adverbial.

    In short, the "how" we were chosen is not because of our sanctification or belief (especially because God is the Subject-Actor here).
    On the contrary, we are set aside in Christ by the Holy Spirit baptizing us into Christ. Thus the adverbial clause does tell us how God chose us - by putting us in Christ and by basing His choice on crediting our faith in the truth as righteousness. QED
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Rippon, the issue is not that we are saved in time, the issue is that I believe scripture says we are chosen in time. In the Calvinist effort to nullify 1 Peter 2:9-10 one posted that they were chosen before time but did not become a people until saved. Thus changing the meaning of chosen people to saved people. When Calvinist stop rewriting scripture, they will abandon Calvinism and embrace a view or views nearer to the middle of the divide between Arminianism and Calvinism. Anyway, that is my prayer.
     
  17. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    ἐν + the dative does not always indicate manner and it is not always adverbial. Here's why:

    ἐν + the dative is adverbial in a so-called "dative of manner." This cannot be a dative of manner because the dative clauses cannot be turned into an adverb in English--we could not say God chose...sanctificationally or beliefially. So, one test of the dative of manner does not pan out.

    Secondly, an adverbial phrase does answer the question "how." But these dative clauses cannot answer that question because of what they modify. The immediate antecedent is not the verb "chose" but is the accusative noun "salvation." Since these dative clauses modify a noun, and not a verb, they cannot be adverbial

    The phrases (ἐν + the dative) are prepositional phrases first and foremost and, as such, modifying "salvation" they describe the means of salvation, not the means of God's choosing. (See further discussion below)

    Further, this must be a dative of means, not a dative of manner (adverbial) because the main verb (chose) is middle/passive. A dative of manner does not, to my knowledge, occur without an active verb. The use of the dative of means with the middle/passive verb indicates agency on the part of the subject--God, in this case. God is the Agent choosing persons to save and then accomplishing that salvation by sanctifying them and causing them to believe in the truth.

    What is more, the preposition for "through" is δία + the genitive. We have neither δία nor the genitive here, therefore your assumption that "through" can be assumed is incorrect.

    So, your grammatical assumptions fall far short of any grammatical reality.

    It is clear you don't understand the Aorist. The Aorist indicates a snapshot of past time, a completed action. The Aorist use of the verb "chose" completely and totally rules out the concept of a "continual choosing."

    "As first fruits," if that is the best rendering, cannot put the time of choosing within the lifetime of the ones being saved. The Aorist verb will not allow for that. The nature of the Aorist verb is partly why I believe "from the beginning" is the better rendering. Regardless, the rendering the accusative noun cannot alter the Aorist-ness of the verb.

    "Chosen to be saved" is the clear reading of the text. And, as you will note, I am not agreeing with you; I am agreeing with the text. If you happen to agree with the text too, then we might be said to be in agreement on this one point.

    Wrong. As I mentioned before, these dative phrases are prepositional phrases and are modifying the noun "salvation." Therefore, since they are not modifying a verb, they cannot be adverbial. In any event the dative of means, can (and, I think, does) apply to the prepositional phrases precisely because the phrases give the means to how one is saved--sanctification and belief in the truth, not the means of how one is chosen.

    To add a further clarification. Generally, prepositional phrases are adjectival (as opposed to adverbial) when they expand the object of the preposition with further nouns--which is exactly what happens here. These phrases (which are really one phrase since ἐν governs both the dative nouns) are not mere ἐν + the dative. Rather, these phrases clarify the noun "salvation."

    We are not "sanctifying" ourselves. We are being sanctified by the Spirit. We are not required just to "believe." We are required to believe in the truth. Both these phrases expand on the meaning of the noun "salvation" and show how the salvation is accomplished. Also, the word order of the sentence itself gives credence to this.

    What is more, in v. 14 we see the phrase "to this he called you..." The "this" is an accusative relative pronoun and, being neuter, refers to the entirety of "salvation through sanctification...and belief..." This is important because we see "God calling" and God is not calling them to chose them. Rather, He is calling them to salvation.

    In short, the "how" we were chosen is not because of our sanctification or belief (especially because God is the Subject-Actor here).

    On the contrary, we are set aside in Christ by the Holy Spirit baptizing us into Christ. Thus the adverbial clause does tell us how God chose us - by putting us in Christ and by basing His choice on crediting our faith in the truth as righteousness. QED[/QUOTE]

    There is no adverbial clause here. The only "how" question is not how we were chosen, but how we are saved. The "set aside in Christ..." is not addressed in this passage and is therefore under the category of facts not in evidence. Whether I agree that we are set aside in Christ or not (which I do, but not in the time-frame you suggest) is moot.

    The Archangel
     
  18. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    I haven't read Mein Kampf either, but I know Hitler was wrong in his actions.

    I don't have to read Calvin's words to see that his theology is flawed.
     
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So the translators used foreknew instead of chose for what reason when "chose" was readily available to them?
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    My brother in Christ......did you not initiate this post?
     
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