1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured What denomination...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Michael Wrenn, Mar 17, 2012.

Top Posters
Page 2 of 4
  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    I view their record as the record of apostasy. Here is your problem! You are looking to the wrong source for your theology. You are looking to uninspired post-biblical traditions (which I veiw as the history of apostasy predicted in scripture) instead of the scriptures.
     
    #21 The Biblicist, Mar 17, 2012
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Any view of the atonement that denies the cross is ESSENTIAL for reconcilition between God and sinners is absolute damnable error. Any view of the atonement that emphasizes the Love of God at the expense of the holiness of God is absolute damnable error as it is a repudiation of the very heart of the gospel found in the doctrine of justification.
     
    #22 The Biblicist, Mar 17, 2012
  3. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    The earliest churches held to Christus Victor, and they got the view from the scriptures.
     
    #23 Michael Wrenn, Mar 17, 2012
  4. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    Stop deflecting. The EOC is not heretical. Also, many Lutherans hold to Christus Victor.
     
    #24 Michael Wrenn, Mar 17, 2012
  5. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know what all of you think about the Christus Victor view and about me. That is not the point. I simply asked if there was a denomination apart from the EOC which predominantly holds to Christus Victor -- one that hasn't been corrupted by Latin Christianity and Reformed theology.

    Even Wesleyanism, which somewhat resembles Eastern Christianity in some respects, is corrupted by the Latin West.
     
    #25 Michael Wrenn, Mar 17, 2012
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    That remains to be seen! Easily boasted but more difficult to demonstrate! Every heretic and every heresy makes the same boast but the proof is in the pudding and I don't see any proof yet!
     
    #26 The Biblicist, Mar 17, 2012
  7. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    None that I know of. I don't believe any Biblical church would follow this teaching.
     
    #27 annsni, Mar 17, 2012
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Think about this! Under the Mosaic Law, there were PENAL consequences for violating, transgressing the law of God. The death penalty was administered for violation of God's law. The only thing that would protect Israel from the wrath of God in destroying them was a blood sacrifice. This can be illustrated numerous times in the Old Testament.

    In the New Testament, sin is defined as the transgression of the law and the "wages of sin is death." The "wages" refer to its PENALTY because violation brings the violater under the "CURSE" of the law (Gal. 3:13). In Old Testament terms to be brought under the "CURSE" of the law is to come under the LEGAL POSITION of condemnation whereby the PENAL consequences for violating the law are justly administered. This is so self-evident that it is bewildering that anyone would even attempt to deny it. They just as well deny the inspiration of Scriptures as to deny this obvious spelled out fact repeatedly stated over and over in the Old Testament.
     
    #28 The Biblicist, Mar 17, 2012
  9. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then you obviously haven't read enough early church history. Doesn't anyone wonder why these earliest churches which by consensus gradually decided which books were scripture did not hold to penal substitution but rather the Christus Victor view, combined with the moral influence view? It took 15 centuries until Calvin finally discovered penal substitution in the NT -- coincidentally (?) when rationalist legalist jurisprudence was becoming the mindset.
     
    #29 Michael Wrenn, Mar 17, 2012
  10. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    The EOC is not "Biblical", huh? No, of course not; the Eastern Churches were only a part of those who helped decide the NT canon. :rolleyes:
     
    #30 Michael Wrenn, Mar 17, 2012
  11. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    (See bolded part) Of course, and that is perfectly consistent with the Christus Victor view.

    Where penal substitution goes wrong is to suggest that God punished and killed Jesus in our place, to satisfy His wrath and justice; that puts a stain on God's character -- it is reprehensible.
     
    #31 Michael Wrenn, Mar 17, 2012
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    Ac 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

    Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    QUESTION: It pleased who? "the Lord". Who hath put him to Grief?

    Ro 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    You have to explain away these scriptures.
     
    #32 The Biblicist, Mar 17, 2012
  13. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    I almost dreaded to come back and read responses because I don't want to argue. But at least you posted scripture and didn't call me an apostate.
     
    #33 Michael Wrenn, Mar 17, 2012
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Well, I shall try to restrain myself so you won't have to dread it so terribly:wavey:
     
    #34 The Biblicist, Mar 17, 2012
  15. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    I like discussion and debate, and I hold my positions passionately and expect others to do so, as well. But I don't like personal insults, even though I have done that myself.

    We all see through a glass darkly, and we should all remember that.
     
    #35 Michael Wrenn, Mar 18, 2012
  16. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    2
    I think your doctrine is correct, but I also think the use of words like heretic, damnable, and apostate when directed towards individuals needs to be used very rarely in the most extreme of circumstances and carefully worded. There is way too much implication, usually indirectly because of board rules, that someone is not saved based on a difference of opinion in doctrine.
     
    #36 saturneptune, Mar 18, 2012
  17. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    They didn't decide the church canon. They only confirmed what was already known....
     
    #37 annsni, Mar 18, 2012
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    I generally agree with you. I think for the most part I use such terms to describe the position or doctrine.
     
    #38 The Biblicist, Mar 18, 2012
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Biblicist, who do you think you are fooling. Here was just one of your many heretic remarks directly directly to me as an individual.

     
    #39 Heavenly Pilgrim, Mar 18, 2012
  20. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    My point is, the Bible as we have it was not dropped down out of heaven in its present form; the canon was decided on through a consensus process of the churches over a period of time. So they didn't just confirm what was already known.

    No book made it into the canon which was widely rejected, but some that were widely accepted did not make it in -- such as the Shepherd of Hermas.

    So, if everybody already knew what the canon was, there would have been no need to debate, test, and discuss over a fairly long period of time to determine what the canon was.
     
    #40 Michael Wrenn, Mar 18, 2012
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 2 of 4
Loading...