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Featured To Obey God rather than tradition is legalism? Really??

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jul 12, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    you ought to be ashamed of yourself in that regard because from the very beginning I have stated that Moody viewed the Sabbath issue the same way as the Baptist Confession of Faith.

    1. STARTING in Gen 2:3 - in Eden - as Saturday the 7th day of the week.
    2. Applicable to all mankind from Eden to today.
    3. CHANGED from Saturday to Sunday after the cross but still the "SABBATH" of the 4th commandment.

    hint: it is pretty hard to read his text where he slams those who claim the Sabbath is done away with - and get anything else other than what I have stated repeatedly on this subject as being the view of the Baptist Confession of Faith - and those that promote that view like Spurgeon, Moody and Stanley. This just isn't that hard.

    What in the world part of this leaves me being ashamed of anything at all in my addressing the "details"??

    I say rather that you are the one that keeps imagining false positions and assigning them to me - which when the details are exposed - never hold up.

    I should think that would be tiring after a while.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #61 BobRyan, Jul 16, 2013
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Now DHK if you were to be honest on this subject for a moment you would admit that you differ with the Baptist Confession of Faith in at least the point where they argue that the Sabbath commandment of God can be "edited" to point from Saturday the Seventh day of the week - to Sunday - the first day of the week. (And while you also differ on some other points as well -- this is at least one area where I think you get it right and so in that one point - I would agree with your view.)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #62 BobRyan, Jul 16, 2013
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Which part of this sermon (the same one that you quote from) do you not get??

    The Sabbath is Sunday.
    That is the Sabbath is speaking about.
     
    #63 DHK, Jul 16, 2013
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I have never disagreed with the principle of a day of rest--one day out of seven.
    I have always believed Sunday to be set aside as a day of worship.
    I believe it is taught in Scriptures such as Acts 20:7 and elsewhere.
    I don't believe it was changed by the RCC as some others teach.

    My beliefs, therefore, are very much like Moody's.
    You have been dishonest to use Moody as an example of one who has kept the Sabbath. He does not keep the Sabbath any more than I do. I vehemently oppose "Sabbath-keepers."
     
    #64 DHK, Jul 16, 2013
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1. Moody vehemently opposes "Sabbath breakers" in his sermon - read it.

    DWIGHT L. MOODY​
    The Ten Commandments:
    Exodus 20:2-17 ​

    .
    [FONT=&quot]The Fourth Commandment[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]but the seventh day is the Sabbath[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]LORD thy God[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]rested the seventh day[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]wherefore the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.[/FONT]


    ​
    THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

    I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

    "    The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

    It isjust as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever,[FONT=&quot] because we live in such an intense age.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]    The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with    the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai.How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

    I believe that     the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;[FONT=&quot] if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

    [/FONT]    =======================================

    1. Moody claims the 4th commandment - Sabbath was given to MANKIND in Eden. So does the Baptist Confession of Faith - by contrast DHK thinks it was only given to Israel - starting at Sinai.

    2. Moody claims that the Sabbath - of the 4th commandment REMAINS in effect from Eden until today and is just as needful today as it ever was. By contrast DHK condemns Sabbath keepers.

    3. Moody claims that Sabbath breakers who insist that the 4th commandment Sabbath was done away with have no grounds to stand on. DHK claims that he vehemently opposes Sabbath KEEPERS.


    DHK then summarizes this huge gap - where Moody actually specifically condemns DHK's rejection of the Sabbath Commandment - the 4th commandment this way.

    It is left for the reader to find the self-conflicted element there.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #65 BobRyan, Jul 16, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What I don't get in all of that - is that after calling Moody an uneducated evangelist that you do not agree with - why are you going through this effort to then agree with something he said as if that has value for you?

    Especially given his own statement on your views.

    ===================================================
    I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

    "    The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

    It isjust as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever,[FONT=&quot] because we live in such an intense age.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]    The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with     the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai.How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?
    =======================================

    The principles being affirmed by Moody above - destroy everything DHK has said about the Sabbath so far.

    Am I simply "not supposed to notice"??

    And in fact the principles above - are the very ones I appeal to in my own argument on behalf of the Bible Sabbath?

    Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

    really??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #66 BobRyan, Jul 16, 2013
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What part of my post - claims that Moody is not claiming that the Sabbath was changed at the cross to Sunday - as the 4th commandment Sabbath - the same way that the Baptist Confession of Faith does?

    I fail to see where you find an excuse to be confused on that point.

    Here is what I posted -- again.

    1. Moody claims the 4th commandment - Sabbath was given to MANKIND in Eden. So does the Baptist Confession of Faith - by contrast DHK thinks it was only given to Israel - starting at Sinai.

    2. Moody claims that the Sabbath - of the 4th commandment REMAINS in effect from Eden until today and is just as needful today as it ever was. By contrast DHK condemns Sabbath keepers.

    3. Moody claims that Sabbath breakers who insist that the 4th commandment Sabbath was done away with have no grounds to stand on. DHK claims that he vehemently opposes Sabbath KEEPERS.

    4. Moody had many Christian contemporaries that also observed Sunday but some of whom did so by also vehemently opposing Sabbath keeping.

    5. Moody specifically singled out those arguments and slammed them in his sermon.

    The only place that DHK appears to agree with Moody is that they both like week-day-1. But that was also true of the people in Moody's day that strongly opposed his view of the Sabbath according to his own statements.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #67 BobRyan, Jul 16, 2013
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  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Moody claims the covenants and ceremonial laws were done away with Christ which includes the covenant made by Jehovah to Israel in Exodus 31. The Sabbath the Moody was speaking of was Sunday, not Saturday; a principle not a covenantal law such as the SDA maintain.
    Moody defines the Sabbath as Sunday, the first day of the week; that it is needful to keep one day out of the week free for worship. This is not what the SDA's teach.
    Those that legalistically keep the Sabbath are condemned by the law for the law condemns. Moody, in principle, taught that a person should set aside one day a week for worship. If he was as strict as Bob says, why would he declare that his sabbath (day of rest) was Saturday, while others should set aside Sunday for a day of rest. The day didn't matter. One day out of seven was a day of rest. It was culture that dictated the first day of the week, culture that our custom was to practice it on the first day in memory of the resurrection of the Lord. But there is no command to do so. The early church met every day of the Lord. It is the principle--to rest one day of the week--that is important.
    I have documented evidence which you have rejected. Moody rested on Saturday because he worked on Sunday. He encouraged the rest of his people to worship on Sunday and take that day as their "Sabbath." Sunday was the Sabbath, according to Moody. That is the Sabbath that Moody advocated: a "Sunday-Sabbath."
    Yes, he wasn't a SDA legalistic Sabbath keeping person. He met for worship on Sundays with other believers in Christ.
     
    #68 DHK, Jul 16, 2013
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    By contrast -- Moody claims that the Gen 2:3 Sabbath is still in force.

    I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

    "    The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

    It isjust as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever,[FONT=&quot] because we live in such an intense age.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]    The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with     the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai.How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

    ===================================

    So here is the question for DHK - do you find one penny's worth of difference between those Moody is Condemning in the text above - and your own views on the Sabbath?

    Anything at all?

    If so - help us to see where you differ with those that Moody is targeting in his statement above about those who claim the 4th commandment Sabbath given in Eden was done away with. Anything?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #69 BobRyan, Jul 16, 2013
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    "It is just as practicable and as necessary." That falls short as a requirement of the law.
    Secondly, contrary to what he has said there is no commandment in Gen.2:3.
    [/FONT]
    Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
    --What command??
    Again, I stress Bob, you are a dishonest man to take parts of this sermon out of his overall context trying to make him say what he doesn't. He no more says to keep the sabbath then Psalm 14:1 teaches "There is no God."
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

    Upon whom was the Sabbath binding on in Eden?
    Was the Lord forced to rest? Did he need to relax from the physical exertion of his creation? Binding on whom? Where is the command?

    The "remember" comes in a command given to Israel.

    But you won't read the entire sermon will you? That makes you hypocritical and dishonest.
    ===================================
    I understand what Moody is writing, and what vocabulary he is using.
    Sabbath means Sunday. He preached to his people to lay aside one day a week for worship. We do the same thing.
    There is little difference. I challenge you to show me any command in Genesis 2:3 to keep a command. There is no command there; only a principle. He taught principles, not slavish adherence to the law.

     
    #70 DHK, Jul 16, 2013
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Look, it is obvious you disagree with Moody as much as you disagree with the London Baptist Confession as both regard the Christian Sabbath to be Sunday.

    Your tactic is very simply, divide and conquer, pit them against each other while inserting SDA interpretation into Genesis 2:3.

    However, the bottom line is still that Moody, Spurgeon and the Baptists who wrote the Newhampshire and London Confession of Faith disagree with your SDA interpretations and confirm Sunday is the Christian Sabbath in keeping with THEIR VIEW of Genesis 2;3 and the Law not the SDA view of Genesis 2:3 and the Law.

    Genesis 2:3 nor any fourth commandment record include the words "of the week" and could not because it would violate God's own application of Sabbath Law principle as He applied Sabbath Law to other days of the week as the FIXED DATED Sabbaths did not fall upon days that corresponded to the seventh day "of the week" as 7, 14,21,28 but on days that corresponded with the first day of the week Sabbaths such as 1, 8, 15, 22,50.

    Neither did God restrict the Sabbath law to merely 24 hour days as as your restrictive interpretation demands but applied to both uses of the term "yom" in Genesis 2:3-4 and therefore we find a Seventh MONTH, Seventh YEAR, fiftieth YEAR Sabbaths.

    So your restrictive interpretation of Sabbath Law violates God's own application of it proving that the Sabbath priniciple must be interpreted broader to include God's own applications than the restrictive SDA interpretation.

    Finally, if God can arbitrarily apply it to other days 'of the week" in Leviticus 23 without violation of the Sabbath law, he can and he did apply it to the first day of the week (Psa. 118:24/Acts 4:10-11; Mk, 16:9; Heb. 4:9; Rev. 1:10; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Acts 2:1; 20:7) and ignatius a disciple of the apostle John confirms this with a solid testimony from his day right up to Constantine the Great.

    Finally, it is not the Jewish Old Covenant Sabbath day "of the week" we celebrate as all of its levitical restrictions are abolished (Col. 2:16) and the first day of the week Sabbath and its proper observation are spelled out in Psalm 118:24 by the words "we will rejoice and be glad in it" and in Rev. 1:10 "I was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord's Day" as the proper observation is public worship "in spirit and in truth" without the legalistic bondage of the Law of Moses.

    The Sabbath principle is simply six working day followed by a Seventh Day Sabbath. It can be begun and concluded on any day God so chooses as the FIXED DATED sabbaths prove without question. Furthemore, the Seventh day Sabbath not only concluded six days of work but introduced six days of work so it stood at the end and the beginning. The seventh month Sabbath also was the First month of the new Jewish year. The seventh day Sabbath in Genesis was the first full day for Adam and Eve. So in the very principle of the Sabbath law is that the Seventh is both the last day and first in its relationship to six preceding and six following days. In the FIXED DATED Sabbaths of Leviticus 23 they are all numbered in keeping with the first day of the week Sabbaths (1,8,15,22,50) rather than in keeping with a seventh day of the week Sabbath (7,14,21,28,49) because the feasts of Levitius 23 are MESSANIC New Covenant types anticipating the resurrection day of the Lord (Psa. 118:24;Acts 4:10-11).
     
    #71 The Biblicist, Jul 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2013
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    False.

    The 4th commandment Sabbath is about God selecting the very day of the week that is Holy - blessing IT and sanctifying the one HE picks. Then as we see in Ex 16 mankind is instructed not to select any other day - but to be focused on "the very day" selected by God.

    How instructive for the unbiased objective readers.

    And the annual Sabbaths of Lev 23 DO NOT follow that weekly cycle pattern - rather they are ANNUAL and have much more than 6 working days between them - in most cases.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #72 BobRyan, Jul 17, 2013
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Adherence to the fourth command is given to Israel as explained in Exodus 31. What tribe are you from Bob?
    Adherence to the Sabbath as a principle and not as a command is taught in Genesis 2:3, and in Romans 14 is far different than the legalistic slavish adherence to the law that the SDA teaches:

    Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
    5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
     
    #73 DHK, Jul 17, 2013
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed it is. and the TEN Commandments as well -- see Exodus 20:1-2.

    Because Israel is part of "mankind".

    Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath" guess what happens in the New Earth? "shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

    For as we all know "the Sabbath was MADE for mankind". Mark 2:27

    No wonder the Baptist Confession of Faith is so firm on the 4th Commandment starting with Gen 2:3 for all mankind and still applicable to the saints today.

    Who can blame them for not missing that Bible point?

    Certainly not me.


    In Gen 2:3 mankind was under strict laws - absolute perfect obedience to all the WORD of God - and sinless.

    Jesus said in Matt 5 that not the least stroke of the law can be ignored by man even in his fallen state - how much more in man's sinless state.

    1John 3:4 - the Apostle John "defines sin" as violation of the Law of God.

    Even the Baptist Confession of Faith admits to the Moral Law of God - given to mankind in Eden.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #74 BobRyan, Jul 17, 2013
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  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The one who chooses to worship on one day above another vs the one who worships on all of the Lev 23 holy days - is not the issue we are debating.

    Even the Baptist Confession of Faith - divides between the ceremonial laws of the Lev 23 annual Sabbaths vs the MORAL Law in the 4th Commandment.

    And who can blame them? Certainly not me - and I am not even Baptist.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #75 BobRyan, Jul 17, 2013
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here is a little something I brought up over a month ago --


    This quote is from a thread on the subject of combining different Baptist views. Views rejected by some Baptists accepted by others in each case.

    Not so.

    1. I believe in free will - you can reject whatever you wish.
    2. My objective is to show that each time you "wish" you could recast the entire discussion as Baptst vs SDA - that on the points you select - you really have Baptist-vs-Baptist an in-house debate.
    3. You are welcome to that in-house debate and you are welcome to include me in it on these points where you object to the Baptist Confession of Faith , and to your own D.L. Moody. I am fine with that.

    4. But no recasting it as if differences on ALL of these points is merely Baptist vs SDA - unless you actually have one of the distinctive points that works out that way.

    True and if your argument is "no matter how conflicted our arguments - the general point is to get out of the actual day God said to keep in His Law - no matter which method we use to do it or how self-contradicting the methods are to each other" - then you show the true "spirit" of the exercise

    In our case your arguments are exactly what D.L. Moody singles out - to oppose.

    -- which is more than a little "instructive" to the unbiased objective reader.

    And which leads us to the title of this thread.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #76 BobRyan, Jul 17, 2013
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  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Not in the case of the 4th commandment.

    In ALL cases (Lev 23 or Ex 20:8-11) it is

    1. GOD that selects the very day not man. "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" Ex 16
    2. GOD that selects the cycle - annual or monthly, or weekly
    3. GOD the sanctifies and blesses the day.
    4. GOD that declares the entire 24 hour day - holy.


    The actual language of the 4th commandment says nothing at all about "introducing a new six days" of anything.

    It is not a 13 day cycle with a Sabbath in the middle as Biblicist keeps trying to wrench it to say.

    What I find interesting is that you seem to be drifting away from your Sabbath not for mankind - idea - to "yes we keep the Sabbath on Sunday".

    Did read you right on that one??

    ARe you trying to have it - both ways?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #77 BobRyan, Jul 17, 2013
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Here is what Albert Barnes says about Romans 14:5. It is quite instructive:
    Even today our city council "esteems" Jewish holy days as Hannukah, and the media is sure to mention them.
    Not even the Sabbath had a special significance for a Gentile believer.
    According to Barnes it was not the Jewish Sabbath that was in question here; it was the Christian Sabbath. Many had put Sunday as more important than other days!!!!
     
    #78 DHK, Jul 17, 2013
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Albert Barnes is a Presbyterian Bible Commentator that I like - though I do not agree with him 100% - as you might well imagine.

    Even so - I find this instructive.

    I fully agree that this is "in the context" of approved Bible holy days - such as we find in Lev 23 - the annual feasts and festivals - annual Sabbaths etc.

    Some would keep them all - and others would keep one above the other.

    And this would be more common among the Jews than among the Gentiles.

    But the Gentiles would follow the moral Law - applicable to all mankind. The one that even the Baptist Confession of Faith admits - includes the 4th commandment Sabbath.

    The one that is found applicable to Gentiles in Isaiah 56.

    The one where we see Gentiles in worship service on the SEVENTH day Sabbath in Acts 13, and Acts 17 and Acts 18.

    The one where we see Gentiles in worship in Is 66:23 for all of eternity.

    The one "Made for mankind" as Christ admits in Mark 2:27.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #79 BobRyan, Jul 17, 2013
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Adam Clarke is another non-SDA Bible commentator that I find helpful.

    ====================

    Verse 27. The Sabbath was made for man
    That he might have the seventh part of his whole time to devote to the purposes of bodily rest and spiritual exercises. And in these respects it is of infinite use to mankind. Where no Sabbath is observed, there disease, poverty, and profligacy, generally prevail. Had we no Sabbath, we should soon have no religion. This whole verse is wanting in the Codex Bezae, and in five of the Itala.
    Verse 28. The Son of man is Lord
    See on Matthew 12:7,8. Some have understood this as applying to men in general, and not to Christ. The Son of man, any man is Lord of the Sabbath; i.e. it was made for him, for his ease, comfort, and use, and to these purposes he is to apply it. But this is a very harsh, and at the same time a very lax, mode of interpretation; for it seems to say that a man may make what use he pleases of the Sabbath; and, were this true, the moral obligation of the Sabbath would soon be annihilated.
    GOD ordained the Sabbath not only to be a type of that rest which remains for the people of God, but to be also a mean of promoting the welfare of men in general.
    The ordinances of religion should be regulated according to their end, which is the honour of God, and the salvation of men. It is the property of the true religion to contain nothing in it but what is beneficial to man. Hereby God plainly shows that it is neither out of indigence or interest that he requires men to worship and obey him; but only out of goodness, and to make them happy. God prohibited work on the Sabbath day, lest servants should be oppressed by their masters, that the labouring beasts might have necessary rest, and that men might have a proper opportunity to attend upon his ordinances, and get their souls saved. To the Sabbath, under God, we owe much of what is requisite and necessary as well for the body as the soul.
     
    #80 BobRyan, Jul 17, 2013
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