Once Saved Always Saved

Perhaps no point you have raised exposes the utter failure of your argument in this case more than this...

How in the WORLD can you argue that all the other posters on this board who ALSO agree that OSAS is false doctrines - reject the SHINING example of debunking OSAS given in MAtt 18??

Where in the world did you come up with the wild notion than that those who find OSAS to be false DO NOT readily accept the Matt 18 teaching on "forgiveness revoked"!!???

What kind of reasoning is that Steaver?? "OSAS at all costs to reason and logic"???

If so- it demonstrates the problem we seem to be having in our exchange of information on this topic.

in Christ,

Bob

 

There is no argument. I have followed every OSAS argument here ever since I can remember you bringing Matt 18 to the board as a Once saved then Lost example. I have NEVER witnessed another poster, even those who are in your camp, ever giving you an "amen" on Matt 18. I have NEVER witnessed another anti-OSAS poster other than yourself bring into the debate Matt 18 as an example of one who was saved and then was lost.

If you have any that I have over looked then bring them forth and I will humbly withdraw my conclusion.

It seems the problem is in your own statements. Is salvation by grace through faith like you answered, or is salvation by grace through faith plus self perserverance?

If it is the latter from your point of view then just say so. And be sure to answer the same in the future when asked and there will be no "argument" between your own words.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

I would not have said it if I did not believe it, Bob.

 

Really??? what did you "imagine" they were doing with Matt 18 and Ezek 18 (and they have brought up BOTH) as they were debunking OSAS??

(this should be good).

Wrong -- the problem is yours. you only have room for Eph 2:8 in your doctrinal view - the other texts on perseverance appear to illude your doctrinal grasp as you cling to OSAS "no matter what scripture says".

My approach to is to accept them all.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Very well then brother. I will re-ask the question and you may answer in FULL this time...

Bob, how are you saved?

You began...."by grace through faith".........( I personally thought that this was your full and complete answer)....... but go ahead and continue. Please keep it complete so we don't have any conflicts.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

Many if not all of us accept the Eph 2:8-10 statement on being saved by grace through faith.

But some seek to do it in a kind of Bible-snipping way where they excuse themselves from reading or "noticing" how the following NT text debunk OSAS AS if you really can turn Eph 2 into an "either-or" fallacy against the rest of scripture.

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.




24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


Warnging about Forgiveness revoked – OR God reminding himself that He needs to remember to make us “forgiving” if He wants us saved.


Matt 18
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035489&postcount=59
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035498&postcount=64
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035503&postcount=67

Matt 18 <[b]Forgiveness Revoked!>
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
[/quote]


TRUE statement about those who ARE in Christ and joined to Christ – being SEVERED from Christ – or it could be construed as God reminding Himself that this is something that can never happen?

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?


--------------------------------------
Peace with God replaced by a certain terrifying expectation of judgment to come

Quote:
Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.[/b]
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment[/b] do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant
Quote:
by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?





1Timothy 3:1-6

2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

Yet here we can “CLEARLY” see that the reason a bishop is not to be a new convert is because he can “FALL” into the very same condemnation of the devil. Now I ask you; how can a convert fall into the same condemnation of the devil and still be on the road to heaven? He can’t.

Question was posed by Ken at
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1056007&postcount=79

 

To understand that OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) is error not taught in scripture we must first see what the Bible defines as “salvation” condition for the saints.

Gal 5:4 NASB
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 KJV
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 NIV
4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Gal 5:4 NKJV
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


Notice the above text shows now “NEVER were with Christ” meaning at all – rather it shows the same SEVERED FROM Christ concept as John 15, and Romans 11


Now let’s consider the Bible definition of one who is saved is the following.

#1. Reconciled to Christ - in fellowship with Christ.
#2. At peace with God in the light of His grace to us. (Rom 5:1
#3. Forgiven of sins (1John 1:9)
#4. Christ as our Mediator confessing us as His own before the courts of heaven. (1John 2:1)
#5. Faith that is alive and growing James 2:14-26, Heb 11:1-4
#6. Partaking of the Holy Spirit and the heavenly blessings of the age to come.
#7. Freedom from slavery to sin - escape from the tyranny of being forced to sin.
Walking in the Spirit and putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Walking as Christ walked rather than lying about our relationship to Christ.
(1John 2:2-5, Romans 8:3-9, Romans 6 all, Romans 2 all)

By contrast –


Matt 18:21-35 Forgiveness revoked.
John 15:1-6 removed from the vine of Christ – withered -cast into the fire
Romans 11 – Removed from the tree of Christ – because of unbelief.



Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9


SOME of the OSAS people claim to believe in eternal hell and to believe that this failure to persevere simply means that you are “OSAS Saved anyway but without persevering”.

Question:
HOW can it be WORSE? Worse to live with Christ forever than burn in hell forever?

 

Hey I just took your own bible-snippit as your answer in full to the question.

Let's see......yada yada yada...and here is something new......

AMEN! Good job brother, I can't argue with any of that :thumbs:

You were doing so well and now you have argued against your own presentation of God's salvation. Study closley what you just posted with an open mind and heart praying God for truth and understanding. Ask Him to guide you into all truth and give you FULL assurance of your salvation in Christ.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

If I am reading you right - Gal 5 is the "yada-yada" you reference above --

To understand that OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) is error not taught in scripture we must first see what the Bible defines as “salvation” condition for the saints.

Gal 5:4 NASB
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 KJV
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 NIV
4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Gal 5:4 NKJV
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.



Or is it Rom 11? MAtt 18?? 1Tim 3?

 

Uh, initial salvation is called JUSTIFICATION.
Continuing daily salvation is called SANCTIFICATION.
End of the Age salvation is called GLORIFICATION.

Jesus does Justification Salvation to those who cooperate with Him.
Jesus does Sanctification Salvation to those who cooperate with Him.
Jesus does Glorification Salvation to those who cooperate with Him
(at the Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection, of course).

None of your Gal 5:4 statements say that
a person initially saved are going to be lost.
The people are trying to be justified (initially saved)
through their own efforts -- they don't know
or believe that JESUS SAVES. Not being saved
they miss out on the Grace that they could have
by letting Jesus Save Them.

Galations 5:4 is an OSAS proof text.

Read Gal 5:4 the other way around, if you are saved,
then you won't miss out on grace by trying
to justify (initial salvation) yourself by the law.

Hello! JESUS SAVES isn't a banking slogan - it
is a SALVATION slogan.

 

I have to ask if everyone that asks to be saved is always saved, then how about these verses?

Matthew 7:21 (KJV)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46 (KJV)
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

I know many people, especially on the net, that say God will forgive me, basically for blatantly sinning.


You truly can't be saved if right after you pray the prayer of salvation you go back to your regular routine.
Bars, dance clubs, premarital sex, drugs, etc.

The people who say God will forgive them never repent of their sins. I wonder how they believe God will forgive them if they don't ask Him for forgiveness? I believe they are deceived.

 

Jesus' Salvation is forever

Proof text:

Joh 3:16-17 (KJV1611 Editon):
For God so loued ye world, that he gaue
his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer
beleeueth in him, should not perish,
but haue euerlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Sonne into
the world to condemne the world:
but that the world through
him might be saued.

Note that 'should not perish, but have everlasting life'
in John 3:16 is equal to 'saved' in John 3:17.

QED: OSAS (Once Saved by Jesus, Always Saved by Jesus)

This is the principle.
Jesus' Salvation is forever

Here is something that some would say contradicts it: Matthew 7:21 (KJV)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father
which is in heaven.

People who say to Jesus "Lord, Lord"
may not get saved by Jesus.
Those who do get saved by Jesus will do the
will of His Fahter in heaven.

This is the principle.
Jesus' Salvation is forever

Here is something that some would say contradicts it:

Luke 6:46 (KJV)
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord,
and do not the things which I say?


People who call Jesus 'Lord, Lord'
may not get saved by Jesus.
Those who do get saved by Jesus will
do what Jesus said to do.

Nope, gotta do better than that.

 

That was my point. If you are saved you do the will of God.

It was kind of a trick question. I knew the answer to.

I wish people would see that they are deceived if they believe otherwise.

 

Amen, Brother The Scribe -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

GE

Have you ever seen a truly confessing 'Church-goer' who lives like this? And if you have, have you read or heard the prayer of - was it the pharisee - who prayed, I thank you Lord I'm not like this one next to me here praying?

 

See Ed Edwards comment.

I'm just saying Christians are to flee temptations. That is if you go to the den of iniquity then you can and will eventually fall into temptation.

You will always reap what you sow.

You can't be a drug using, premarital sex having, bar hopping Christian.
It's impossible and against the scriptures.

 

Forgive my ignorance, but what is "the prayer of salvation"?

 

Post 246 shows why it is that OSAS can never survive the full test of scripture.

Many if not all of us accept the Eph 2:8-10 statement on being saved by grace through faith.

But some seek to do it in a kind of Bible-snipping way where they excuse themselves from reading or "noticing" how the following NT text debunk OSAS AS if you really can turn Eph 2 into an "either-or" fallacy against the rest of scripture.

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.




24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


Warnging about Forgiveness revoked – OR God reminding himself that He needs to remember to make us “forgiving” if He wants us saved.


Matt 18
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035489&postcount=59
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035498&postcount=64
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035503&postcount=67

Matt 18 <[b]Forgiveness Revoked!>
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
[/quote]


TRUE statement about those who ARE in Christ and joined to Christ – being SEVERED from Christ – or it could be construed as God reminding Himself that this is something that can never happen?

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?


--------------------------------------
Peace with God replaced by a certain terrifying expectation of judgment to come

Quote:
Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.[/b]
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment[/b] do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant
Quote:
by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?





1Timothy 3:1-6

2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

Yet here we can “CLEARLY” see that the reason a bishop is not to be a new convert is because he can “FALL” into the very same condemnation of the devil. Now I ask you; how can a convert fall into the same condemnation of the devil and still be on the road to heaven? He can’t.

Question was posed by Ken at
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1056007&postcount=79

 

These texts explain why it is that "never were saved to start with" short-cuts can never survive the test of scripture in the case of those who fail to persevere.

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

BobRyan,

Amen! Well saying! Preach it! :thumbs:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!