Logic and the Literal Payment Theory

I will accept your explanation of the Atonement of Christ if you can demonstrate from the NT any NT writer's use of Lev 16 to explain Christ's atonement.

 

That is easy --

1. in 1John 2:2 John says "He is the Atoning Sacrifice" without giving the reader any definition at all for "Atonement" -- clearly the reader had to have had access to "scripture" to understand it.

2. Paul says this "BUILD ON scripture" model was the one used by the NT saints.
Ephesians 2:20
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

Acts 26:22
"So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place;

3. Paul then "explicitly" references the "ONCE A YEAR" work of the High Priest in Heb 9 to explain the work of Christ -- which IS in fact the "Day of Atonement service". Paul points to the fact that the visual aid of the earthly service in that Day of Atonement service is "instructive" in teaching us about the work of Christ as our High priest. (Turns out God's Word "scripture" was considered to be "inspired and profitable for doctrine" even by Paul in Heb 9.)

4. Acts 17:11 is explicit proof that the OT text (called "scripture") WAS in fact being used by the listeners to understand AND TEST the validity of the teaching of the NT apostles. "To see IF those things were so" is a process of "testing against scripture".

Hmm - I would think that if you will go with that point - then what is stated above is already accepted.



in Christ,

Bob

 

There is no "Propitiate God" teaching in all of scripture.

There is only "God so LOVED that HE Gave"

There is only "God was IN CHRIST reconciling the WORLD to Himself".

In other words it is the "opposite" of "propititate God" the direct opposite of "appease God" the exact opposite of "appease the angry deity". There is nothing at all in scripture of the form "Christ so suffered that God was appeased and turned away his anger from his victims".

The greek pagan concept of "propitiating God" is not found -- rather the Scripture-based concept of "God PROVIDING atonement" IS found.

Christ IS GOD -- IS One with the Father (not in Person but in function) and so to say "Christ propitiates God" is to say "Christ appeased himself by letting himself be tortured by guilty man until he felt better about guilty man". The Greek pagan concept of "appeasement" does not work in scripture.

The other option in the "propitiate God" model is to "divide god against God so that god appeases GOD by letting himself be tortured" -- another idea that most people should reject if they just stop and think about what they are saying.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Maybe you have gotten the wrong impression about my view of the OT. Let me go on record as saying:

1. The OT is as much Scripture as the NT (2 Tim 3:15-17; 1 Tim 5:18).

2. The OT was used by the NT writers and Christians to prove Jesus as Messiah (Acts 17:2, 3).

3. The OT outlines the fundamental historic pillars of the gospel (1 Cor 15:1-3).

But according to Paul, we have been made "ministers of the New Covenant" (2 Cor 3:6).

I still stand by what I've said already: I look to the NT writers' interpretation of the Atonement of Christ rather than Lev 16.

 

So why the Day of Atonement in the OT? Why the Atonement of Christ? Why did God set Jesus forth as the Atoning sacrifice (Rom 3:25)?

There is also "the WRATH of God" (Rom 1:18).

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It seems like you are content in setting aside a large portion of the Scriptures:

"Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God" (Rev 16:1).

Maybe you need to go back and read about the WRATH of God. Maybe you can start with Rev 16 about the seven bowls of the wrath of God.

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Read Paul:

"9 For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess 1).

Whose WRATH is to come, if not God?

I stand on Scripture. If God reconciled us to Himself through the Substitute. What made us the enemies of God, if not sin?

And this sin brought the WRATH of God against sinful man.

"It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb 10:31).

"From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty" (Rev 19:15).

If you are content in setting aside a large portion of Scripture, I will do no such thing.

It is precisely the fury of the wrath of God that believers are saved from, because Messiah has satisfied an angry God.

 

The Bible says "God so LOVED that HE gave" I am going to have to go with God as "FIRST cause" in this salvation - gospel solution not as "reacting" to an independant act of "someone else" but "GOD IN HUMAN FLESH" taking upon HIMSELF the job of suffering for OUR sins.

I am going to have to go with this Bible idea of "God was IN CHRIST reconciling the WORLD to HIMSELF" in 2Cor 5 as the accurate model so diametrically opposed to the greek pagan concept of "appeasement".

The sin that separates is "rebellion" we live in rebellion against God -- that separates. God in Christ is "reconciling the WORLD to Himself" so that we may escape the 2nd death and be saved. "We BEG you on BEHALF OF Christ BE RECONCILED to God" 2Cor 5.

Very very different from "little god -- Jesus - APPEASING the angry deity of big GOD -- God the Father".

Down to the very end -- Jesus prays "FATHER with you ALL things are possible - IF IT BE POSSIBLE let this cup PASS FROM Me" -- We do not see Jesus saying "mr. angry deity -- I shall allow myself to be tormented and tortured until you are appeased".

God's Law for the stability of HIS creation demands that those in rebellion suffer torment and eternal death -- called "the 2nd death" in Rev 20. This is like a civil government or king defining laws that punish those in rebellion against the government. But when their own child commits and act of rebellion they need to find a solution that can spare the child AND spare the kingdom. The King does not become "one who needs to be appeased" when considering the death and doom of those he loves. The problem faced in that case is "very different" from the greek pagan concept of "appeasing the angry deities".

God's wrath is against "sin" (Rebellion for sin is the transgression of God's Law) not the sinner. This is why 2Cor 5 can say "He (GOD) became SIN for us"

in Christ,

Bob

 

May I suggest that you get a handle around Romans 1:18-8:39.

Christ satisfied the wrath of God. There's no getting around this biblical fact.

Christ has saved believers from the wrath of God to come (Rom 5:9, 10; 1 Thess 1:9, 10).

And precisely because believers have escape the wrath of an angry God.

 

I thought it might be helpfull to have the texts highlighted that have to be faithfully "ignored and sidestepped" to hold to a greek pagan model of "appeasing an angry deity" instead of "God so Loved that He gave".

sometimes in the back and forth -- it is easy to miss this.

 

I'm interested in Scripture.

 

1. Let me outline what you reject:

2. Paul was at Corinth dismayed and about to turn to the new city. The Lord appeared to him and said:

"And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent, 10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people.” 11 And he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them" (Acts 18, emphasis mine).

3. Then sometime later Paul wrote to the church at Corinth:

"26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let those who boast boast in the Lord." (1 Cor 1:26-31,TNIV, emphasis mine).

4. When I put those two texts together this is what I come away with: When God said he had a people in Corinth, it meant a people he had chosen for salvation.

I'm just letting Scripture speak.

 

How about presenting a Scriptural argument rather than being philosophical?

 

It appears to me that you're not interested in a Scriptural debate.