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Brother Darrell,

The claim God loved all men to the extent that Christ died for all men is inconsistent with what the scriptures teach about the love of God. This inconsistency occurs at several points:

1) The scriptures teach God's corrective chastisement is upon all He loves. But the scriptures also teach not all are under this chastisement (Ps 93:12-13, 1Cor 11:32, Heb 12:6-8, Rev 3:19).
2) The scriptures teach God's love is effectual in the sense it produces change in those receiving it; however, in no case is the effect universally observed; therefore, the cause cannot be universally applied (1Jn 4:19, Tit 3:3-5, Eph 2:4-5). For example we read, "19 We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19). The love of God toward us is the cause, and the effect is us loving God, however we know that not every human being loves God, therefore it is proof that God does not love every human being.

Scriptures which refer to God loving the world or to Christ being given to the world (Jn 3:16, 1Jn 2:2) do not encompass all people without exception. Instead, such scriptures are intended to teach that God's love extends beyond the bounds of the Jewish people unto every nation, kindred, people and tongue (Rev 7:9). The term world is used repeatedly in the scriptures in a limited sense; however, this fact seldom receives proper recognition. In the Gospel of John alone there are such usages in: Jn 12:19, Jn 14:19, Jn 15:18, Jn 16:20, Jn 17:9, Jn 17:14, Jn 18:20. For example, in John 17:9 Jesus states, " 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.". The word "world" here obviously only means the nonelect of the world, not every human being, thus I can see how the word "world" in John 3:16 may also mean only the elect of the world or as previously stated intended to teach that God's love extends beyond the bounds of the Jewish people unto every nation, kindred, people and tongue (Rev 7:9).

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Some take that view, so I will ask that you explain the meaning found in...


Romans 5:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

And I add the note:

"Charisma "is found in vv.15 and 16, dorea found in v.17, so the argument "the free gift" does not appear in the text is not a good one, I think the translators were correct and saw that it is in the context. It actually makes it clear that salvation is not universal.

"All men" cannot be manipulated as the world is in discussions like these.

In which the principle still applies that all men fall into one of two types, either saved, in which they come under chastisement, or lost, in which they come, and will come...under His wrath.

This is irrelevant tot he issue of God manifesting His love, not just to the Elect, but to the whole world, and all men.

The next passage you can explain is...


John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Now what is in view here? I suggest to you that enlightenment to truth is in view. Every passage you care to offer that deals with those condemned will show that they are condemned for rejecting the truth revealed to men in whatever Age you care to discuss.

This is true before the Law, it is true under the Law, and it is especially true in this Age, in which the Mystery of the Gospel has been revealed.

We see the love of God manifested in His revelation of Himself to all men:


Romans 1:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


His wrath is generated, not because people are inherently depraved, and they are, being natural, and separated from Him...but because they, knowing the truth, reject the truth.


We see that in such passages as...


2 Peter 2:21

King James Version (KJV)

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


2 Peter 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:


It is God's love that motivated Him to reveal truth to all men, even those who reject that truth thus coming under wrath.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


God will not hold someone accountable unjustly, which is why we see a distinction made between those who rejected Moses' Law and those rejecting the Ministry of the Comforter Who reveals the Mystery of the Gospel in this Age.

Can't be held guilty of not obeying the Gospel if one has never heard the Gospel.


Continued...

 

Correction: the effect cannot be universally applied, but the cause is not only universal...He is Eternal.

You are ignoring even what you are saying here:

This is very true, and an obvious meaning of John 3:16.

Next passage to explain:


Romans 10:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

I would agree, however, that does not negate those passages which make it clear that every man will be held accountable for his response to the revelation God has provided them. I say it often, no man will stand before God and say "But...I didn't know! You didn't tell me!"

That is correct. All families of the earth are included in His promise of salvation.

Next passage:


John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Explain an exclusionary doctrine and keep the integrity of the Prophecy.

But we do not just calculate passages that reference the world, my friend.

Next passage:




Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


And another:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Perhaps you can tell me how this does not show incontrovertibly the love of God extended to those who are unbelievers.

The Comforter's Ministry is precisely to the lost, and that means...all men.


Next passage:


Ephesians 3:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


Next passage:



1 Timothy 2:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



Next passage:



1 Timothy 4:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11 These things command and teach.


Next passage:


Titus 2:10-11

King James Version (KJV)

10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


I do not base the clear picture of God's love for mankind on texts dependent on the word "world."

Explain the passages above.


God bless.

 

The death of jesus was intended by the Father to purchase back some of the lost, as ALL whom God purposed and willed to get saved by that event will indeed get saved!

 

That's not the issue at hand. What is being discussed in the previous post is whether or not God loves the world, all men, and has provided the opportunity of obedience to all men, or whether He only bestows His love on the Elect.


I have provided what I believe makes it clear what Scripture says...what say you?


God bless.

 

Brother Darrell, Here is the verse again that you quoted, "18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life". The words "all men" in the latter part of this verse cannot mean every human being, otherwise every human being it says would receive "justification", thus there would be nobody in hell as there is no such thing as a justified dammed person, is there?

It is relevant, because God says he chastises all everyone he loves, but those who are not chastised are not sons, but rather bastards, and if he doesn't chastise someone it shows he doesn't love them, thus God does not love all human beings because he does not chastise all! "7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?8 But if ye be without chastisement... then are ye bastards, and not sons" (Hebrews 12:7-8)

John 1:9 does indeed say, "9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.", but the "every man" mentioned in the verse cannot mean every human being because the next two verses state, "10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not" Are you going to assert that someone who has Christ's light in them will not know him or receive him? But, that is what you have to conclude if you interpret the "every man" in verse 9 is every human being. However, the "every man" is all of the elect that receive Him and is found in the next verse in verse 12, "12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Notice also it says those born of God are not so because of the "will of man, but of God".

Brother Darrell, no verse in scripture explicitly uses the word "offer" in regards to the gospel, can you give me one? Also, no verse in scripture explicitly states one must "accept" Jesus, can you give me one? On the contrary, it says Jesus is the one who makes us accepted, not the other way around. "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:6)

Paul tells us the gospel, contrary to popular belief, is not an "offer", but rather a declaration of how Jesus saves His people from their sins by His death and resurrection, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:' (1 Corinthians 15:1, 3-4)


Brother Joe

 

This passage says not one word about the "love of God". What verse in the above passage mentions the "love of God", moreover what verse in the above passage says that this "love" extends to every human being? It doesn't say this. However, it does say that his invisible attributes are seen in nature, thus the truth that there is a God is clear even to the non-elect, thus they will be without excuse when they are condemned to eternal damnation.

This passage says a child of God has Christ's law "written in their hearts", but how did it get there? Ezekiel 36:26-27 tells us, "26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them"
First notice how many times in the two verse passage God says "I will" (not "man will"),also notice it says God will, "cause you to walk in my statutes", finally notice the recipient of the new heart is passive in the whole passage except for the walking in the statutes which God causes him to walk in.

Again, I say how can they reject something that is never said to be "offered"? Further scripture is clear that it is because people without the Holy Spirit are inherently depraved that they will not repent and believe the gospel. "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:44), also Jesus says goats cannot believe his words, only the sheep, "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you" (John 10:26). What did Paul say the preaching of the gospel was to the unsaved, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:18).

This passage just says the non-elect are willingly ignorant of the word of God. Mankind is free to choose according to his nature which is totally evil, and before having His Spirit in him scripture tells us, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5), thus of course the non-elect are willingly ignorant of the word of God.

Scripture tells us faith is a fruit of the Spirit. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith" (Galatians 5:22). Therefore one must first have the tree that produces the fruit inside them (i.e. the Holy Spirit) before he can produce the fruit (faith) to believe the gospel. Life must always precede action, this is a basic principle, but before one is born again they are said to be spiritually "dead in sins" (for phrase "dead in sins" see Ephesians 2:1, 2:5, Colossians 2:13, and 1 Peter 2:24). A dead man cannot do anything can it? Let alone, believe something such as the gospel. Thus the scripture tells us we must be sovereignly "quickened" by the Holy Spirit (without any means of man) to believe the gospel (for the "quickening" of one who is "dead in sins" by the Spirit see Ephesians 2:1, 2:5, and Colossians 2:13).

Of course the non-elect "obey not the gospel" as Paul tells us, because the "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

However, if Christ died for an individual, and they "believe not", the do not go to Hell as Paul told us, "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:13), thus even this is forgiven. However those he did not die for will not only go to Hell for their unbelief, but also for all their wicked works, this is why Revelation 20:12 tells us regarding unbelievers at the end day, "... I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"

What scripture says that? None.

Brother Joe

 

Brother Darrell, a cause applied to the same thing (human being having the same nature) would have the same effect. Name me an example of a cause being applied to two identical things, but having two different effects? That is nonsense! Everyone that God loves, in turns loves him! "We love him (EFFECT), because (CAUSE) he first loved us' (1 John 4:19), yet we know not all men love God, thus they must not all experience the cause (i.e. the love of God), unless of course you can prove to me that identical causes applied to identical objects can produce differing effects, this is impossible.

Also, if you do not believe one has faith in the gospel because of the Holy Spirit being in him to give faith, how do you explain one person rejecting the gospel and another believing it if they have the same nature to begin with? Again the cause of the gospel should produce either all to not believe or all to believe if your belief is true, but that is not the case, some believe and some don't. The reason? The gospel when preached to someone who has God's spirit in them produces belief, but when preached to a spiritually dead person it yields unbelief. To prove it, go out and talk to some dead people and see what kind of responses you get, then go out and talk to living people and you will see response.

The new birth is compared to a birth, a resurrection, an adoption and a creation. Did you play a role in being born? I think not. Did Lazarus play a role in coming alive? Of course not. Does an adopted child choose his parents or does not the parents select the child? Did the earth play a role it it's own creation? The answer to all of these things is of course no, thus it is with the new birth, it is not of a man's will. "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Romans 9:16) and, "12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12013)

Faith does cometh by hearing, but we are also told it is not produced by a man's will, but is a gift of God "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8). God does not give this gift to all men, otherwise all would be saved. We read even the believing in Jesus is a work of God, not a work that man is to perform, "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (John 6:29). Moreover, Galatians 5:22 tells us faith is a fruit of the Spirit, thus you must first have the Spirit in you to have faith because as I believe Christ said a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit" (Matthew 12:33)



Brother Joe

 

QUOTE=Darrell C;2223248]Next passage:


John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Explain an exclusionary doctrine and keep the integrity of the Prophecy...[/QUOTE]

First, let us use your interpretation of the word "world" and see if it fits the passage. If it means every human being, then every human beings sin is taken away, as that is what the verse says, therefore there is nobody in Hell, thus your interpretation does not fit. However if on the other hand the word "world" means all of the "world of the elect" it makes perfect sense. As I said in a prior post regarding the word "world" in particular in the gospel of John, the term world is used repeatedly in the scriptures in a limited sense; however, this fact seldom receives proper recognition. In the Gospel of John alone there are such usages in: Jn 12:19, Jn 14:19, Jn 15:18, Jn 16:20, Jn 17:9, Jn 17:14, Jn 18:20. (I challenge you to look up those preceding verses brother Darrell to see if what I am asserting is in fact so). For example, in John 17:9 Jesus states, " 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.". The word "world" here obviously only means the nonelect of the world, not every human being, thus I can see how the word "world" in John 1:29 may also mean only the elect of the world.

Yes, he will judge the world and yes it is a sin not to believe in God, and yes we are saved by his mercy, but not works, but I do not see in either of those passages from what verses you are implying that it shows God loves every human being? Please post the verses and elaborate.

Jesus did say he "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost", and I say he was successful, that not one he died for will perish, but under your doctrine the majority of those he died for will end up in Hell, thus his mission was a failure. But this will not be the case as it says, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21). It doesn't say he "might", but he "shall" (a sure thing) save his people from their sins. Jesus also said, "But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Matthew 9:13). In this verse the word "righteous" means self-righteous (I believe he was talking to the Pharisees), but in any case it shows not all men are called by Jesus to repentance. Also notice, Jesus said elsewhere, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;" (John 6:37), does the "all" in this verse mean all mankind or all the elect? Also, what about the word "all" John 6:39, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing". Does this mean all mankind or all of the elect? If it means all of mankind, then it means the Father's will is not going to be done, doesn't it? If this is the case why did Jesus instruct us to pray, "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" if this wasn't going to come about? Also brother Darrell, please explain why Jesus didn't pray for every human being when he prayed, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine"? Does the word "world" in this case in John mean every human being or only the non-elect?

Brother Darrell, yes the verse says he "will have all men to come unto the knowledge of truth", but again if you interpret the "all men" here to mean every human being, you know what that does, that makes the will of God dependent on the will of man to become saved, but scripture says of God it is , "him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:11), but this verse would be untrue if he worked his will to save all human beings and that none should perish after the will of man to choose to be saved. It is undeniable that scripture says he works ALL THINGS" not "some things" after the counsel of His own will, thus by comparing scripture with scripture it is apparent that the "all" means all that the Father giveth me" and when he says he is not willing that "any should perish" it means "all that the Father giveth me" and not every human being. Why would God create mankind and make his will dependent or subject to the will of man, thus giving up his sovereignty and making man in control? But that is the conclusion if you follow your doctrine to its logical end.

Also, if he is the mediator for every human being, nobody would go to Hell.

I do not deny that he is the Savior of all of those that believe and only to those who will believe, it is you that believe he is also the savior of those who never believe upon them, but then I guess you believe he is no longer their savior when they die in unbelief.

For the passage you quoted above, if you interpret "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" to mean every human being you again run into a problem. The passage says the cause is "the grace of God", the effect of this grace according to the passage is it "bringeth salvation" (not might or potentially bringeth salvation), thus once again you would have every human being having salvation, but we not this is not the case, thus the "all men" means "all that the Father giveth me" (the elect).

God bless you brother. I probably wont be on Baptistboard again until Monday or Wednesday, but will look to reply to you again if you post Lord willing. Enjoy your service tomorrow.

Brother Joe

 

First note that condemnation came to all men.

That includes the Elect. They are not secluded from that general group w call sinners, and natural, and lost.

Secondly, the text dot not say every man is saved, but as condemnation came upon all men, so too, the Gift, not salvation, came to all men.

Now we can supplement the teaching in this verse with...



Romans 5:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



The primary point is that condemnation came upon all men, which laces all men in the same category, and that it is also by One that the free gift came upon those you deny it describes...all men. Since we cannot eradicate the all men, as seen in the initial response, the conclusion is that in view is not the giving of salvation, but the giving of the Gift, which is repeatedly stated as being motivated by God's love for the world and those that dwell there.

There is nobody in Hell that we know of at this time. We know of a few bound demons, but beyond that...the dead are in Hades, as testified by this...


Revelation 20:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Not in the eternal sense, no.

But there are only justified sinners from among the general population of those clearly designated as without Law:


Romans 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


And what that means is this is a clear example of the internal witness God has given to men who lived in the Age of Law. It illustrates what Paul teaches in Romans 1, which shows they had revelation of God, and the single point I make often is that God will, and always has, judged men according to their obedience to the revelation He has provided them. This predates the Age of Law and the best example of revelation, which was more personal that that which occurred in the Old Testament after the Fall...is of course God's command not to eat of that tree.

See Scripture show us that those judged had revelation and knowledge of God, which also shows they knew His will, because that is what they are charged with violating, and that intentionally I might add:


Romans 1:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Now consider that darkening as a result of intentionally rejecting the known will of God. Then contrast with...


John 1:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


You equate this with salvation in Christ, I see it has to do with revelation, which every man that comes into the world is given. As testified by Paul above, so that those that sit in darkness sit in that darkness of their own choosing, again...they are without excuse.

And why we would think that is was due to God's love that Christ came into the world to die that He might take away the sins of the world, but not correlate that to the revelation provided in Old Testament Economies makes little sense to me.


And I will just end this with saying thanks for taking the time that you did, this is by far the best response to the Scripture given as of yet.


Continued...

 

I think that whether God maintains a love for people after rejecting the revelation He has provided for them is a topic for another discussion. In view here is the general principle that God is said to love the world, and to send the Gospel to every man. He is not willing that any should perish, which is a statement that cannot achieve the moderation to "...except for those He never loved."

That the Elect are among the lost before salvation is not something I would think would be in dispute.

That He chastises His Children is also not in dispute.

What is in dispute is who He manifests His love for, and primary reason for the dispute is the Arminian and Calvinist's ancient battle.

And the central issue there is readily resolved in understanding that God has always provided men with revelation and the knowledge of Himself and His will. Just because we do not have a specific statement that fits with one model or another, doesn't mean the whole of Scripture remains silent.

And it is always God's Word which is given, and this entails His Divine will for man at any given Age in History. But before we get to that...

Consider the revelation spoken of here:


Hebrews 12:18-24

King James Version (KJV)

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



Red for the revelation the Writer consistently contrasts the New Covenant, which is the Covenant of Law (also called Moses' Law and the First Covenant in Hebrews); Green for the New Covenant; and purple/indigo for the revelation in Abel's day, which was a sacrifice for sin which is noted as such due the terminology.

So again we see the importance of the revelation provided man, and their condition in direct relation to their obedience. In Chapter Ten the Writer makes it clear those who reject Christ, the Comforter, and the New Covenant...will be punished with more severity than those who rejected the First Covenant (Moses' Law). The reason is that Christ is the ultimate Sacrifice and Covenant that all other Covenants pictured and pointed to.

So that God chastises His children is about as relevant to what I see as the central issue as the statement "Only the Elect will be saved," which is the same as saying "Only the saved will be saved" but introducing the elements of Foreknowledge and predestination. Both of which can be, by the overwhelming testimony of Scripture, be said to not be results of God looking into the future (God is Eternal, time holds no power over Him) and calling only those He knows will come under obedience to Him. We would then have to attribute some quality or characteristic that qualifies them for being chosen which would then in turn nullify salvation by grace through faith.

And that is the Gospel of Christ: God did that which we could not do: according to His kindness and mercy He saved sinners despite the fact there was nothing in man that warranted that.

Now for another indication of God's love bestowed upon the world through the very revelation He provides them:


Hebrews 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

God ha always given man the revelation necessary to be in obedience. And while revelation has always been progressive, and still is, we cannot impose a salvific element to justification though vicarious means of death that was not the Cross of Christ, because remission of sins in completion, which is the model of the New Covenant, is testified numerous times as only possible through Christ's Offering.


Continued...

 

If you equate enlightenment with salvation in Christ then you might well think this would have to imply universal salvation.

We know what "His own" rejected, right?

Christ.

And specifically...specific revelation of Christ which was hidden until Christ came.


Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


See how harmonious that is with Christ lighting every man that comes into the world?

We maintain a consistency with all Scripture and do not mistake this as universal salvation, but exactly what it states.

When He came into the world His own rejected that He was Messiah.

That is the revelation that saves eternally, as contrasted with the provisional redemption and remission of sins which still had to be remedied...


Hebrews 9:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The revelation of Prophets has yielded to God revealing Himself through Christ:

John 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.



John 1:18

New International Version (NIV)

18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.


Footnotes:
a.John 1:18 Some manuscripts but the only Son, who


Sorry for the NIV but I liked the 1984 translation and think it presents this correctly in less ambiguous terms.

Just the opposite: Christ ha always been the Author and Finisher of faith.

It is what that faith entails that we have to be careful of, or we will make a Christian out of Abraham and David when they did not have specific faith in Christ's death.

Except a man eat of His flesh, and drink of His blood...he has no life in Him. Moses had manna, but we have the True Bread which came down form Heaven (at a specific time) that He might give life to the world. Again, Hebrews clears it up. It was at that time eternal redemption was achieved and the transgression of those who died having only the blood of bulls and goats, a temporary remission of sins which was repeatedly often and even daily...were redeemed.

Not at all.

Which establishes the Doctrine of the New Birth as every other place testifies...as wholly of God.

And in that we see free will denied:


John 1:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


This states without controversy that men are not born again by heritage, by their flesh (similar to Pete not knowing of his flesh that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the Living God, but that it was revealed to him of the Father), nor by the efforts of men (whether of the individual or those of priests).

God's Sovereignty remains intact and we see that it is the revelation of God through which men are enlightened as to their condition. They are not born with this ability but it manifests only when that revelation is bestowed upon them.

And in keeping with previous revelation it is given to all men.


Continued...

 

Agreed.

If you think you are arguing against an Arminian view, let me assure you, you are not. The only free will any man will ever exercise is that will which he does have naturally, which is to disobey, which can only be over-ridden by the revelation of God. Peter was used to declare the Deity of Christ, yet would right after this deny the Gospel, then curse and swear he never knew Christ, then take up a sword to prevent Christ from going to the Cross, then ask about the temporal Kingdom in Acts 1 after just being told "Ye will be Baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

Sure:


Romans 10:10-17

King James Version (KJV)

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This reaches back into the Old Testament Eras. God has always made His will known to man, and has done in many various times and ways.

But has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son Jesus Christ, by Whom HE also made the worlds, or in other words, as the Old Testament teaches...

...there is no Savior besides Him.

Man will either try to save himself, in which case he will fail, or he will yield to the revealed will of God and come under obedience to the Gospel, the last word in Redemption.

Sure:

Romans 10:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


Christ teaches this extensively in John 6, and because of the teaching, many of His disciples walked with Him no more, because it was a hard saying unto them. As with Peter, it did not conform to what they expected in Messiah.

Not sure why you would think I have suggested works of men, or an ability within man.

The only ability man has in regards to the spiritual things of God is that provided by God, which takes it out of man's hands just as Scripture does.

And that negates quite a large number of texts which conflict with this teaching, which is summed up that Christ declared His victory over sin, death, and the grave, and somehow all of the Elect are automatically saved.

All men are born lost, and will have to come under obedience to the Gospel. God provides the revelation necessary for one to come under conviction, and that conviction itself is supplied of God:

Again:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Very simple statement here: those who the Comforter Ministers to are unbelievers, and called the world.

There is only one group in view. Not two.

All men are born lost, and in need of the Savior, and their salvation is achieved through the New Birth which is effected by the Spirit of God Who indwells them and cleanses them, making them new creatures, not remodeled beings.

So when we can nullify this....

Romans 10:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Then we might say the Lord just zaps a substance known as eternal life in us, rather than coming into us as a result of our obedience to the revelation He has provided in these last days:

John 14:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



Revelation 3:20-21

King James Version (KJV)

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


Thanks again for the response.


God bless.

 

Brother Darrell,

Thanks for your replies. I have not read them all, but hope to read them in the upcoming days and if I have any thoughts I will post replies. As I see it, because you believe Jesus died for all men, you have a problem because there are so many verses of scripture that teach so much was actually, not potentially accomplished by the atonement that it must only be applicable to the elect, otherwise there would be nobody going to Hell. Consider all the following verses/thoughts-

Scripture teaches us the atonement was more than just a pardon, but in fact a substitutionary atonement, thus it must be limited. Peter declares, "24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed". If our sins were already "bore" and we our "healed" by his stripes, God cannot than make someone "bore" their own sins again and "unheal" them.
Moreover, Jesus was said to actually have been literally "made sin" on behalf of those he died for. We read, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin" (1 Corinthians 5:21a). He poured out the wrath of God on his son by forsaking him on the cross, thus he cannot pour out his wrath again on those he died for.

Further, the word "ransom" is also used in scripture in reference to the atonement, "For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). God would not be just to collect a ransom two times-one on Calvary and once on the sinner by sending them to Hell.

Finally, the atonement could not apply to all men because of what scripture tells us it actually accomplished (not potentially accomplished). The Bible has many passages of scripture that makes this undeniably clear-
"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14)
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life" (Romans 5:10)
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9)
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" (Galatians 3:13)
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" (Ephesians 1:7)
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:10)

Thus according to the scriptures above, the atonement accomplished perfection (our position before God), reconciliation, justification, redeemed us, forgave us our sins, and sanctified us (i.e. set us apart) before God, therefore how could it possibly apply to every human being who ever lived? It simply can't.


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

1. The Bible is very clear that the atoning sacrifice completed at the cross - once fore all - was "NOT for our sins only BUT for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

1 John 4 - God sent His Son to be the "Savior of the World"

2. In Lev 16 God describes for us HIS model of "Atonement" in His "Day of Atonement" and we find that the full scope of Atonement must include BOTH the Atoning Sacrifice - (Christ as the Lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world) -- and ALSO the work of the High Priest Heb 8:1-6 a work that Christ takes up in heaven after his ascension according to Paul.

So then we have an UNLIMITED atoning sacrifice on the cross. And Darrell's claim on that one point is established in places like 1John 2:2.

But we have a LIMITED atonement if you look at the full scope of the Bible doctrine of "Atonement" as God defines it - -since as you say someone who has full atonement cannot possibly be lost - by definition of Atonement.

You are not quoting anything to make that case - but logic. So let us look at the logic because I think there is a flaw in it.

1. Christ paid the price - the atoning sacrifice on the cross. Christ is God. Christ was tortured on the cross. That "torture" is being done to God - God is not "collecting" anything - God is being tortured.

Thus your model is flawed in that it makes it look like "God is collecting" or being paid or being recompensed on the cross - when in fact God is suffering (the Father suffering His Son to be tortured - suffering in that sense with His Son, And the SON suffering on the cross), God is being tortured. This was not God "having a good day" or "God finally getting recompense".

So in God's model of Atonement we have "I will endure torture for you to save you so you don't experience the full result of your sin. But if you reject my Gospel then I will not allow that payment to be applied to your case - you will have to experience the full result of your sin"


"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life" (Romans 5:10)
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9)


Christ "Ever lives to make intercession for us". Christ's life today is as our High Priest - we come boldly before the throne of Grace through Him. IF we reject this - we are rejecting the process by which that atoning sacrifice would have been applied to us, case-by-case, individually.

in Christ,

Bob

 

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" --

If the model God were using - is arbitrary selection then we would have "He came to HIS OWN and so He CAUSED His OWN to receive Him".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Joe, I have been tied up and apologize I haven't gotten to all of your posts, but I will before I leave the forum. Including this one. So be patient with me as I am swamped with work and will have to get to these as time allows, but I appreciate the effort you have put into the discussion.


God bless.