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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Michael Wrenn, Oct 17, 2001.

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  1. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    I can say unequivocally that this is the most mean-spirited, hateful, judgmental, self-righteous message board that I've ever posted on.

    I probably won't stay around much longer; I wouldn't want visitors here to identify me as being of the same mindset that drives this little engine.

    I've met some good people here, and I've found a friend in Jeff Weaver, who, BTW, I have considerable doctrinal differences with. Jeff, though, hasn't called me a heretic and condemned me to hell the way some of you "loving Christian brothers" have.

    [ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Barnabas ]
     
    #1 Michael Wrenn, Oct 17, 2001
  2. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Mike,

    I hope you're not casting me into that particular lake of fire. I always enjoy your posts and your perspectives.

    Joshua
     
    #2 Rev. Joshua, Oct 17, 2001
  3. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Michael Wrenn said:

    So, enjoy your little club while you can, and continue in your self-satisfaction; you've got a rude awakening coming someday--and it'll come from that sovereign God which you all profess to worship.

    Thanks very much. Bye!
     
    #3 Ransom, Oct 17, 2001
  4. Joey M

    Joey M New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>hasn't called me a heretic and condemned me to hell the way some of you "loving Christian brothers" have. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I have not seen one post in this MB that stated any certain person was going to hell.
    We agree to disagree and as always with disagreements sometimes become heated conversations, but I love every brother and sister that I have here. I and others may say some teaching is heritical but never condemn the person. If anything this board has provoked me into studying my Bible alot more and paying more attention to detail when I read. I do hope you will stay around, but if not, God speed.
     
    #4 Joey M, Oct 17, 2001
  5. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
    And I want to keep my Christian witness true, which is rather hard to do in the middle of a "Christian Taliban." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If this is representative of how you define Christian love then I would not want to be associated with you. After all America has been through, I think that statement was uncalled for. Using something as vile as this to describe someone who hurt your feelings is uncalled for.

    If you are going to accuse someone of being "mean" and you are actually the one being "loving" wouldn't it be better demonstrated by actually showing that "love" that you confess to have? That my friend, is not love.

    ~Lorelei
     
    #5 Lorelei, Oct 17, 2001
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Your post was certainly not loving and edifying. It sounds pretty judgmental and self-righteous to me. It sounds like you think you know it all and are mad that the rest of us haven't caught up with you yet. Did you ever stop to think that the problem might be with you? I am not defending or excusing the posts of anyone on this board. It is well known however, that you and a few others have some novel ideas that certainly cross the gain of prior understanding in all circles. Historically, a number of the positions you are defended have been considered anathema until the very recent past. Therefore, it is not unreasonable nor unexpected that the greater burden of proof is on you. Nor is it unreasonable or unexpected that when any of us say something unbiblical we are confronted on it.

    It is interesting to me that when people (myself included) are confronted with wrongdoing (or wrong believing), the first instinct is to blame it others. It goes back to the garden of Eden where Adam's first response was to blame his wife for his sin. Every sinner since then has done it. It is easy to take the "high ground" and claim the leading of the Spirit and the deeper spiritual life and Christian witness. It is a far different matter to submit oneself to truth and the Word of God. I do not defend the hateful and ugly speech of anyone on this board. However, calling for submission to truth is far from hateful or unloving. Calling someone to submit themselves to the God of the universe by putting aside their own opinions and submitting to his revelation in Scripture is the most loving thing you can do ... even when it hurts. There can be no hope for those who reject it.

    You are offended because everyone is not bowing and capitulating to your "enlightened understanding." You attack other people personally, sometimes responding in kind and sometimes preemptively. In your "love," you have done everything you castigate people on this board for. You have shown tremendous intolerance.

    There are many discussions on this board that become heated and people say things in the heat of the moment, for which some apologize later and others never do. However, truth held and defended in an offensive matter is no less truth. Those who love the truth should not give up defending it simply because others do not defend it by "speaking the truth in love."
     
    #6 Pastor Larry, Oct 17, 2001
  7. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    Oh Boy, another 'I'm better then you all, so I'm leaving'.

    I've seen you show less then brotherly love. And I for one have never said you or anyone else on the BB is going to hell.
     
    #7 donnA, Oct 17, 2001
  8. PrayerofJabez12

    PrayerofJabez12 Guest

    I am new on this board, but there are a few people who are hateful and judgemental, but I pray I will make friends here. God bless!
     
    #8 PrayerofJabez12, Oct 17, 2001
  9. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Lorelei,

    "Hurt my feelings?" I'd say that being accused of heresy, saying that my spiritual family is not the family of God, and telling me I'm in danger of hell amount to more than hurting my feelings. That is vile.

    Larry,

    What you say is untrue--I am NOT offended because everyone is not bowing and capitulating to me--and I've NEVER claimed "enlightened understanding"; in fact, I've said many times--here and on other boards--that I and everyone else sees through a glass, darkly. Some here, though, think they see through that glass with great, even exact, clarity. They are the ones who think they have "enlightened understanding."

    The only thing I am intolerant of is intolerance. And I will not sit still and be quiet when someone questions my salvation; anyone who does that has stepped over the line and should be prepared for an appropriate response.

    Katie,

    I've never said or thought I was better than anyone. Yes, I've shown less than brotherly love here, but I admit it's a weakness of mine--not being able to show brotherly love to someone who is condemning me to hell. And I don't mean you.
     
    #9 Michael Wrenn, Oct 17, 2001
  10. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Then ignore people who are saying s-t-u-p-i-d stuff :D

    Until Next Post, Adam
     
    #10 Brother Adam, Oct 17, 2001
  11. ellis

    ellis New Member

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    I agree with the previous post. Ignore the trash. People who are defensive about their corner on the truth show their own insecurity with their defensiveness.

    I've learned a lot of things about this group of Christians I belong to called Baptists from what I have seen here. I understand why some people in the community react to the term the way they do, and why it is sometimes difficult to get people to understand that my "Baptist" church is not judgemental, arrogant, ignorant and thinks that we are the only people going to heaven because of our "right doctrine".

    Actually, I realize that the theological education I received in college was pretty straightforward, honest, truthful and did an extremely excellent job of "rightly dividing the Word of Truth". The Bible study skills I received there, and the teaching that accompanied it, was obviously right on target and in line with the intent of the Bible's writers and consistent with mainstream, orthodox, doctrinally sound Christian thought and action.

    Even though there is mean spirited arrogance here in many posts, it is extremely clear that this is not the position or behavior of all Baptists. The name callers and doctrine police put themselves in that category. The proof is in the pudding. The product speaks for itself. It's obvious that while some Baptists get their fill of being the doctrine "police", many others are full of the spirit and experience the true freedom and joy of exploring all kinds of service and ministry possibilities with an open mind and overflowing heart.

    So ignore the name-callers. Personally, from what I have seen you post here, Michael, you have had a tremendous spiritual journey and I'd like to read more about where you've been and where you think you might be headed.

    Is there another kinder, gentler message board somewhere else?
     
    #11 ellis, Oct 17, 2001
  12. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

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    Let the unbelievers depart. Go Benny Hinnn's site seeya!!
     
    #12 Ps104_33, Oct 17, 2001
  13. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Adam and Ellis,

    Thank you very much!

    Ellis, just for you, since you asked: I was raised by dear, loving Christian parents who took me to church from the start. I cannot remember a time when I did not believe in Jesus Christ. I was baptized in a Southern Baptist church when I was ten years old. Since then my spiritual journey has taken many turns; I've had the chance to worship with many different denominations--Quaker, Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, Charismatic, Pentecostal, Nazarene. I've learned to appreciate these other traditions, and, by exploring them, I've also learned to appreciate the distinctives of the Baptist tradition--so much so that I have come to cherish these Baptist distinctives in a way that I did not until I explored and studied other denominations. And yet there are certain aspects of these other traditions that have had a great influence on me--the Quaker insistence on the Light of Christ within every human being, the equality of women and men before God and in the church, social justice, the emphasis on love rather than law; the Episcopal emphasis on worship and beauty and tolerance of widely divergent views; the Methodist emphasis on personal and social holiness and their warm acceptance of other Christians.

    Several years ago I felt a definite call to pastoral and music ministry, but I immediately began having difficulty with discerning where God wanted me to carry out that ministry. I had been divorced, and my own home church--the one I grew up in and was baptized in--refused to consider me for the ministry, and I found that attitude in many Baptist churches. So, I started looking at other denominations, but I never have really been comfortable anywhere else.

    But there are some mean-spirited Baptists; in fact, I've found more mean-spiritedness and judgmentalism among Baptists than among any other group--and I on this I DO know what I'm talking about. Fortunately, on the other hand, I've found some truly wonderful and Christlike Baptists, too. There are many Baptists today who don't apparently have a clue of what it means to be Baptist. Many don't believe in church-state separation which is something our Baptist forefathers gave their lives for; many Baptists have become strict creedalists--such as the fundie-controlled SBC. The SBC has also abandoned soul liberty, the priesthood of the believer, and local church autonomy; they are, for all intents and purposes, Presbyterians who don't baptize babies.

    Anyway, my journey continues as I struggle mightily to remain Baptist and fulfill my calling in the tradition that my ancestors died for.

    Considering some of the things I've seen here, if this was 400 years ago, instead of these "Baptists" being the ones burned at the stake, I can picture them carrying the torches and stoking the flames.
     
    #13 Michael Wrenn, Oct 17, 2001
  14. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
    Lorelei,

    The only thing I am intolerant of is intolerance.     <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Michael, two questions:

    1) Is intolerance always a sin?

    2) If so, (or even if not), why would you treat it differently than all other sins?

    PA Jim
     
    #14 Pennsylvania Jim, Oct 17, 2001
  15. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Jim,

    I was speaking in broad general terms, and to make a point. There are some things that shouldn't be tolerated--such as slander, lies, character assassination, maligning someone just because he/she believes differently from you. And no sin should ever be condoned.

    I didn't say anything about treating intolerance differently from other sins.

    Thanks for your post.
     
    #15 Michael Wrenn, Oct 17, 2001
  16. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The only thing I am intolerant of is intolerance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Isn't that the liberal mantra of this day and age!

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Test all things; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil - The Inspired, Intolerant Apostle Paul, 1 Thess 5:21,22 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    [ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
    #16 Chris Temple, Oct 17, 2001
  17. Joey M

    Joey M New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Anyway, my journey continues as I struggle mightily to remain Baptist and fulfill my calling in the tradition that my ancestors died for. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    1) Why would you struggle and keep trying to find a loop hole for what the Bible says, you are disqualified to do. Pastoring that is, not talking about music.

    2) Doesn't the Bible warn about following the traditions of our ancestors. Why not try to fulfil your calling in the tradition that Christ died for? But I again stress if you have been divorced that probably, (Not always the rule, but most of the time.), it is not a pastorial calling.

    God speed.
     
    #17 Joey M, Oct 17, 2001
  18. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Chris,

    I told Jim why I said that. I'm sorry to have provided you with ammunition, especially since I'm not a liberal.
     
    #18 Michael Wrenn, Oct 17, 2001
  19. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Joshua,

    No, I wasn't including you.

    You know that I don't agree with you on the homosexuality issue, and yet we have not condemned each other to hell because of our disagreement. It is God who knows the heart, not I; He is the judge, not I.

    Thank you for your post and for your kind words.
     
    #19 Michael Wrenn, Oct 17, 2001
  20. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
    Jim,

    There are some things that shouldn't be tolerated--such as slander, lies, character assassination, maligning someone just because he/she believes differently from you.     <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    OK, you have listed one of the ten commandments as something that shouldn't be tolerated. What would you say about the others?

    PA Jim
     
    #20 Pennsylvania Jim, Oct 17, 2001
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