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Featured ¶John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Jul 5, 2020.

  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    What is lacking in what God has given in order for everyman to believe in the Gosepl ?
    I believe God has given all in order to freely believe and be saved . No need for regeneration to precede faith or even the idea of prevenient Grace . God has freely given all . Nothing is lacking .
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    To “receive” Holy Spirit indwelling, Holy Spirit must be given by God from heaven.

    If you believe God has given Holy Spirit indwelling to every person then you must believe all people are saved. Is that what you believe?

    peace to you
     
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  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
    notice the order. When the Holy Spirit is given they can believe and recieve . The Holy Spirit has been given . Nothing is lacking for people to be able .
     
  4. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    How, then, do you deal with Jesus and Nicodemus' conversation in John 3?

    The Archangel
     
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  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    We need to be born from above . We all need to have a spiritual transformation.
    col 1
    13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    God has given everything so this can take place .
     
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Does God give the Holy Spirit to all or to some?
     
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  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Only after to whosoever believes.
    13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    notice the order . Its Believe first Then recieve.
    John 1 .12
    John 1:12 King James Version (KJV)
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
     
  8. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    The problem here is that your statements contradict. If we need to be born from above (as Jesus tells Nicodemus) you would have to argue (according to the two other statements quoted in this post) that everyone has been born from above by Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. But Jesus clearly says "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3 ESV) The use of "unless" indicates an exception to the "natural" state of man. So, there are two groups--those who are born from above and those who are not, meaning the work of the Holy Spirit does not apply to every person equally.

    The Archangel
     
    #8 The Archangel, Jul 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
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  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Sinners are born of God by the will of God after they receive Christ. (Jn. 1:12-13)
    Clearly not everyone receives Christ
     
  10. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't deal with the contradiction in your statements. You say:

    So, at one point you say "when the HS is given, they can believe and receive" and yet you also say "sinners are born of God... after they receive Christ." These two statements contradict.

    The Archangel
     
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that because of the fall we lost the ability to respond positively to the Gosepl .. I believe that a person can respond to the Gosepl when heard ..After a person believes the Gosepl he is born of God by the will of God after they receive Christ. (Jn. 1:12-13)
     
  12. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    At this point your theology or my theology is irrelevant. You've stated two things: 1. "I believe God has given all in order to freely believe and be saved . No need for regeneration to precede faith or even the idea of prevenient Grace . God has freely given all . Nothing is lacking " and 2. "When the Holy Spirit is given they can believe and recieve . The Holy Spirit has been given . Nothing is lacking for people to be able ." These two things contradict. You cannot have it that people need to have the Holy Spirit so that they can believe and receive and people can freely believe. In other words 2+2=4 and 2+2=5 cannot be true at the same time. The only way out of the contradiction is to suppose that God has given the Holy Spirit to all without exception, but that is precluded by Jesus' statements to Nicodemus in John 3.

    So, which is it? It cannot be both.

    The Archangel
     
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  13. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The holy Spirit is given in Acts 2 as promised

    John 7
    38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
     
  14. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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  15. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    So... You're arguing that the Holy Spirit is given to all starting from Pentecost onward. Is that correct?

    The Archangel
     
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that what's called, "Prevenient Grace", Barry?

    It seems to me that I recall you stating in another thread that you did not believe in this.
    Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.
     
    #16 Dave G, Jul 6, 2020
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  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

    According to this verse, the lost think that the Gospel is foolishness.
     
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  18. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    The way I see you putting this together, they are essentially born of God by their own will, which Scripture says doesn't determine the new birth ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
    In other words, the way I see you you have it laid out, He is obligated to regenerate them after they receive Christ.
    I understand it differently...

    " He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
    13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
    ( John 1:10-13 ).

    They could not receive Him in the active sense, because that would mean that it was by their own will that they were born again.
    "Receiving" must be in the passive sense for a person's being born again to be of God and not of their own will.

    Verse 13 tells us that those who received Him were born of God...
    not of blood, not of their own will, and not of another's will.
    I agree.

    Can you think of any passages that declare why some believe and why others don't?
     
    #18 Dave G, Jul 6, 2020
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They place faith in Jesus as Lord after God grants them a new heart and saving faith!
     
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Given to those in Acts 2 and subsequently to all and anyone who believes there after . The condition thats required in order to recieve is believing.
     
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