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‘It’s Beginning To Look a Lot Like Russia…”

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by poncho, Dec 17, 2010.

  1. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]In Germany they first came for the Communists, [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. [/FONT][/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then they came for the Jews, [/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. [/FONT][/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then they came for the trade unionists, [/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. [/FONT][/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then they came for the Catholics, [/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. [/FONT][/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then they came for me — [/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and by that time no one was left to speak up.[/FONT][/SIZE]

    [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]It's been shown that NS's theory of relative airport safety is but an illusion. At least as far as what we have today. The TSA screeners are evidently to busy molesting small children and old ladies to notice all the guns and explosive materials that have been easily sneaked past them, even with all the new "enhanced security".[/SIZE][/FONT]

    [SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I'm fairly well amazed that people trust our big government to keep them safe when it's been shown time and time again that it cannot or will not, whatever the case may be. The idea that it can get security right when practically everything else it has done has been a complete failure is quite a source of wonderment to me.[/FONT][/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But, I suppose like our good friend Carpro keeps reminding us all the time, times change and it's now considered anti - American (even treasonous) not to trust big government, or to question it, or to oppose it. [/FONT][/SIZE]

    Apparently some folks feel that too much government still isn't enough. :confused:
     
    #21 poncho, Dec 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2010
  2. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Oopsies. :eek:
     
    #22 poncho, Dec 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2010
  3. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    And thus, it's perfectly acceptable for the government to monitor you, to ensure that you don't start having or participating in any activities that they might disagree with, and therefore might need to be hidden. You know, preventing it before it starts, and all that.

    The Panopticon is here.
     
  4. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Even a TSA official agrees that TSA pat-downs violate the 4th amendment.

    Define "reasonable." Is it reasonable to pat-down Grandma (including man-handling her chest and sticking your fingers between her skin and undergarments) because her hip replacement set off the metal detector? Is it reasonable to pat-down a 4-year old, to include a groin search?
     
    #24 Don, Dec 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2010
  5. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Don, in a world where it's considered reasonable for the government to torture a man's child in front of him in order to extract information I reckon most anything the government does could be considered reasonable. So long as it falls under the quise of keeping the rest of us safe.
     
    #25 poncho, Dec 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2010
  6. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    Exactly.

    Whiners generally believe almost any search is unreasonable.

    You have a choice. Fly or don't fly. You have no "right" to get on an airplane.
     
  7. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    I suggest to you that you have no real idea what my "beliefs" really are.

    Unlike you, I have never pretended to be something I am not.
     
  8. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    I know. We can't all be as perfect as you are.

    One thing, even if you are correct in all you political views, when it comes to things that are supposed to define our actions toward others, you are a bitter, evil-spirited person who never has anything good to say about anyone you disagree with here.

    Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
     
  9. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Don't take it personal Robert. Carpro means well it's just that most all the facts are usually stacked against his beloved big government propaganda.

    When faced with that one only has two choices . . . either accept the facts as such and modify your position or belittle those who'd rather rely on the facts instead of big government propaganda. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Correct. And a government agency, such as the TSA, has no right to violate the 4th amendment to the U.S. constitution.
     
  11. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Correct; but it's the government which has decided to institute unreasonable searches for those choosing to fly. Are you indicating that the "loophole" is that, if the government is being used as "hired security" by private airline firms, then constitutional limits/restraints no longer apply?
     
  12. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    If I were you Don I wouldn't expect a "reasonable" answer. :smilewinkgrin:

    Ken, most if not all government agencies today have been trained by the federal government to believe that the US constitution is a radical document and those who defend it are potential terrorists. Why?

    Check this out.

    4th Amendment Blues - Part 1

    4th Amendment Blues - Part 2
     
  13. SRBooe

    SRBooe New Member

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    Just an example of how well TSA and other country's airline screenings are:

    I was travelling from Singapore back to Florida after a month-long job. In my work, I carry a pocket knife which has a long sturdy blade. I thought I had packed it in my checked baggage.

    It was in my laptop case.

    I made it out of Singapore, out of Narita, out of Los Angeles, and into Florida without a problem. Nobody found it there. I was amazed when I got home and took my laptop out and found my knife.

    As far as the insults, it is sad when people resort to that.

    The constitution says what it says. It may not be the current trend to believe that, but I have lived in America too long to buy into that new interpretation stuff.

    I am a Christian, retired military, and a gun owner. Everything that Nepolitano says qualifies me to be under suspicion for "anti-American" activities. It appears we have people here who would support her ideas.
     
  14. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    Nice frame, but the picture doesn't fit. :rolleyes:
     
  15. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    So????????

    You don't want to fly, there is no search. The purchase of a ticket is tacit permission to submit to a search. It's no surprise. You knew about it when you bought the ticket.
     
  16. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Okay; then here's the follow-on question: What's the limit?

    I agree with you that buying a ticket implies tacit approval to be searched, because I'm making an economic agreement with a private agency; but where does that economic agreement nullify the Constitution and allow the government to institute searches that are normally used for those who have fulfilled probable cause and are suspected criminals?

    In a different thread, another long-time poster on BaptistBoard has admitted that she was all for the searches...until it happened to her, and she found out just how intrusive and demeaning they really are.

    At what point do you say the government has gone too far? At what point do you say it's time to protect your fellow citizens from a government that's over-reaching its constitutional limits?
     
  17. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    So you have no problem with the statist position that it is okay for the TSA to violate the 4th amendment? I am truly surprised.
     
  18. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

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    Actually Probable Cause is not the standard for patdowns. Terry vs. Ohio – (1968) which states that Reasonable Suspicion is.

    You weren't talking to me but I'll answer anyway. Reasonable limits is what the debate is about. There has been at least one instance where security procedures were dropped because they were found to be pointless and ineffective. That is supposed to be why our representatives can hash out stuff like this. My guess is that the current standards will be relaxed.
     
  19. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

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    If you are retired military then you must remember how strict the procedures have been since long before 9/11. When I shipped to Germany in the early 80's everyone was patted down upon arrival. The poor guy ahead of me had the full-on body cavity search by MP's. When I flew home on leave my bags were rejected by one of the (civilian) inspectors because he didn't like the looks of it, and I had get off the plane and open it up for them before I could get back on. You must be familiar with this sort of thing, but now complain about some recent loss of freedom.

    Commonsense security procedure did reduce hijackings in the early 70's. Do you think that now all of those procedures should be dropped, or just the ones you don't like? And should Christians, retired military, and gun owners be exempt?
     
  20. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    The FBI is assembling a massive database on thousands of Americans, many of whom have not been accused of any crime, the Washington Post's Dana Priest and William Arkin report. The reporters' latest look at the country's ballooning national security system focuses on the role that local agencies -- often staffed by people with little to no counter-terrorism training -- have played in combating terrorism since 2001.

    Here are five striking revelations in their piece: FULL STORY

    Monitoring America

    Nine years after the terrorist attacks of 2001, the United States is assembling a vast domestic intelligence apparatus to collect information about Americans, using the FBI, local police, state homeland security offices and military criminal investigators.

    The system, by far the largest and most technologically sophisticated in the nation's history, collects, stores and analyzes information about thousands of U.S. citizens and residents, many of whom have not been accused of any wrongdoing.

    The government's goal is to have every state and local law enforcement agency in the country feed information to Washington to buttress the work of the FBI, which is in charge of terrorism investigations in the United States.

    SOURCE

    Walmart Public Service Announcement

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czoww2l1xdw

    A secret report distributed by the Missouri Information Analysis Center lists Ron Paul supporters, libertarians, people who display bumper stickers, people who own gold, or even people who fly a U.S. flag and equates them with radical race hate groups and terrorists. This is merely the latest example in an alarming trend which confirms that law enforcement across the country is being trained that American citizens are a dangerous enemy.​

    A copy of the MIAC report was sent to us by two Missouri police officers who were concerned by its content. SOURCE



    FBI Proposes Building Network of U.S. Informants

    The aggressive push for more secret informants appears to be part of a new effort to grow its intelligence and counterterrorism efforts. Other recent proposals include expanding its collection and analysis of data on U.S. persons, retaining years' worth of Americans' phone records and even increasing so-called "black bag" secret entry operations.

    SOURCE

    Exclusive: FBI Data Mining Program Raises Eyebrows in Congress

    Lawmakers are questioning whether a proposed FBI anti-terrorist program is worth the price, both in taxpayer dollars and the possible loss of Americans' privacy.

    The National Security Analysis Center (NSAC) would bring together nearly 1.5 billion records created or collected by the FBI and other government agencies, a figure the FBI expects to quadruple in coming years, according to an unclassified FBI budget document obtained by the Blotter on ABCNews.com.

    SOURCE

    FBI to Boost 'Black Bag' Search Ops

    "The refocusing of FBI operational priorities and the new emphasis placed on intelligence-based activities...has resulted in a dramatic increase" in the demand for so-called "black bag" jobs, in which teams of highly-trained specialists covertly enter a home or office, search its contents and leave without indicating they had been there, states the budget document.

    SOURCE

    Feds tracking credit cards, store purchases without warrant: report

    Federal law enforcement routinely tracks individuals through their credit cards, cell phones, car rentals and even store customer loyalty programs without obtaining a warrant, an online privacy activist has discovered.

    SOURCE

    That's all I got time for today folks. But that's not all there is no sir, there's so much of this going on that I doubt a dozen of me could document it all even if all 12 of me worked full time at it.


    NS asks, "Commonsense security procedure did reduce hijackings in the early 70's. Do you think that now all of those procedures should be dropped, or just the ones you don't like?"

    It's not the common sense procedures that have people upset NS, it's the way over the top useless and costly insane ones that people object to.

    To all you Wal Mart shoppers Merry Stasimas y'all!
     
    #40 poncho, Dec 20, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2010
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