1-2-3- Repeat after me

Hi, Salty.

The gospel NEVER redeemed or redeems anyone. It is Jesus Christ who did that, with His blood.

And as far as church growth, what more can we add to a predetermined number of individuals elected in Christ unto salvation from before the foundation of the world ?

The gospel is good news of a finished salvation.
Hearing it doesn't make a redeemed more redeemed, neither does believing it.
It is sweet news, to a regenerate heart, but not to the unregenerate heart.

 

That is well put, DHK.

The elect child of God's sins are all atoned for by Christ.

The believing elect, though, those who have come under conversion and the preaching and instruction of the word of God, are to repent or turn away from all revealed and known sin.

Now, they may, or may not, in which case the natural results of sin, or obedience, will be reaped in this time world.

 

Threads like this come across almost as if they are limiting God in some ways, which of course I know none of us intend. Some people always have a problem with a prayer others have problems if something else is done or not done. Everyone is coming at this with there own built in prejudice formed from their own personal experiences and influences.

The bottom line is it is a heart issue and God knows all of our hearts. Regardless what is spoken or not spoken God sees that individuals heart and knows if he or she's response to His calling is genuine, if their belief is genuine. God is not limited to any man made formula or criteria, nor limited by the use of one.

 

You will have to point out where I said anything was wrong other than your example.

 

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

Which is repenting of sin

 

I knew somebody was bound to bring this up, but this cannot be eternal redemption or salvation because if it is then we will have to get rid of the idea that God has people in "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," (Revelations 7:9) because he would have nobody before Israel, and before cross.

We need to remember that situationally, after the cross, God's elect people all over the world who were not Jews, were pagans. The Corinthian church used to be pagans, the Roman church were composed of former Judaists (who were bound by the law) and former pagans or polytheists.

When we think of this situation, we understand that Paul is speaking of the power of the gospel to save in a timely sense from whatever it is that those people of God were involved in.

Christ alone saved His people from the eternal wrath of God.
The gospel is the good news of that salvation and of that redemption, already done, finished, and complete.

So the gospel does not, and never can result, in redemption.
It is a vehicle for conversion, yes, and instruction, and salvation from this untoward generation, for the elect child of God who comes under its preaching.

 

Pinoy,

Can you please restate what you just said in a better way. I really didn't understand what you posted? Thanks

 

I agree with you that God is not boxed in by our prejudices or limitations. However, he has given us a clear gospel and we don't have the right to sound an uncertain trumpet. God has determined to save people through the preaching of the gospel, so we have a deadly serious responsibility to get it right and make it clear.

When we use such language as "say this prayer" or invite one to "repeat after me," we are risking that one may hear "say these magic words." We are sending the wrong message and sounding an uncertain trumpet.

We have several conversion experiences recorded in the scriptures. We ought to test against those scriptures all that we do and say in presenting the gospel to a lost person.

 

so sorry, ss...lol....that was posted from work on the day they called the EMT to certify it was safe for me to drive home, and the EMT's drove me to the hospital instead.....lol

Christ effected and completed the eternal redemption of ALL His elect people, whose names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life, totally based on His mercy (Titus 3:5) and will, and there were no preconditions at all to His redemption of them regarding theology, knowledge of Him, creed, race, tongue, kindred, social status, or anything that divides His people from each other in this fallen world.

If there are any Scriptures to the contrary, please educate me.

This means that throughout every generation of timely chronology, He had people everywhere in the world in all cultures and whatever "religions" they were following.

At the time when He gave what was to be known as the "Great Commission" His people were either Judaists or pagans and polytheists, and His directive to His apostles were to go to all nations (where His people were scattered) and TEACH them (not save them, because He did that already).

Not all of His people will be reached by preachers, apostles, and those in the ministry, but the Holy Spirit knows who they are and will get to them in His own time, independent of means, regenerating them Himself, since even though they are redeemed by Christ, they are born unregenerate in this time world because of their descent from Adam.

 

Pinoy is simply advancing the Primitive Baptist view. The part I highlighted in bold is the key difference between PBs and traditional Calvinists. PBs hold that God will save his elect whether they ever hear the gospel or not. Traditional evangelical Calvinists hold that God will certainly save his elect, but not independently of the gospel. They cite I Corinthians 1:21 "...it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

 

Tom, if you come right down to it, everybody is advancing his own personal and /or denominational views on this board.
And everybody will say, as I say now, that they are simply stating what Scriptures plainly say.
The question is: which is which ?

And the acid test is the foundation of the faith Himself, Jesus Christ.

Did He save His people based on pre-conditions as to theology, creed, race and such ?

Or did He save His people and redeem them with His blood because He loved them before they loved Him, and knew them before they knew Him.

If you are a Calvinist, you know that "U" stands for Unconditional Election, yet if you say that 1 Corinthian 1:21 speaks of eternal and not temporal, or timely salvation, then election is no longer conditional, but foreseen on the basis of their receiving the preaching of the gospel.

Another problem with that is that precondition excludes many souls who haven not, will not, and do not have the presence of a gospel preacher and a Bible and that puts the Holy Spirit dependent on the presence and willingness of a missionary to go and save souls.

So you see, that verse is really dealing with time salvation.

Anything involving preaching, teaching, gospel, conversion, beliefs, practices has something to do with time salvation.

Jesus Christ alone is the giver, provider, procurer, dispenser, and source of eternal salvation, and He did His task given by the Father to Him well.

 

erratum...

"then election is no longer conditional," should have been "then election is no longer unconditional,".

 

Pinoy, I was merely trying to explain your view to SolaSaint. You don't hold your view because you are a Primitive Baptist. You are a PB because you hold your view. See the difference? I wanted SolaSaint to understand that evangelical Calvinists and PBs are right down the line with each other regarding unconditional election. We differ on the use of means.

You're welcome to argue your position. I just wanted SS to know where you were coming from.

 

I have not taken any offense at all, Tom, sorry if I sounded like I did.

 

You didn't seem to take offense, and I didn't take it that way. My post was designed to be explanatory to SolaSaint more than adversarial.

 

okay, God bless ya, brother.:wavey:

 

Pinoy, I want to be sure that I characterized your view correctly regarding election and means. I don't like it when other people define my beliefs for me and get it wrong. If I mis-stated anything, I'll rely on you to set me straight.

 

Thanks pinoy and Tom. I have to add that we surely have to agree that God is sovereign in salvation.:thumbsup:

 

I think we all agree on that. The basic disagreement is not over God's sovereignty in salvation, but the basis of God's sovereign choice in election.