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1 Corinthians ch 11

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Gwyneth, Nov 21, 2002.

  1. Miss Maggie

    Miss Maggie New Member

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    Thank you Lone Wolf [​IMG] . I've never seen this particular site, so I printed it out for later reading. I especially enjoyed the easy way it was layed out, making it easy to understand.

    :)Maggie
     
  2. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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    Thank you for that Lone Wolf. I too wear a veil. Does your church teach coverings for women?

    I also found these two sites that spoke to me again as I read them last night about the importance of being in the position that God gave me in God's government. It was interesting to note that Watchman Nee taught about coverings. I have not read any of his books but have been told they are very good. He was a pioneer in the underground church in China.

    http://users.bigpond.net.au/joeflorence/headcovering.html

    http://heart4god.8k.com/id251.htm

    HCL
     
  3. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf New Member

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    My church does teach it yes, but leaves the choice up to the members. Nobody is looked down upon for not wearing one. Some do, some don't. My church is a member of the Conservative Mennonite Conference. It's a fairly small church. There's about 53 members at last count I think. About 5 of the women in the church wear headcoverings. I come from a IFB background. The headcovering thing took a little study and convincing, but eventually I was won over.
     
  4. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    A new member at my synagogue wears a head-
    covering, and another usually has one on. But
    during services, some of the women wear talit
    about their shoulders like a shawl but covering
    their heads with them when in prayer. I bought
    one years ago, but I have never worn it. One of
    the women is encouraging me to wear it.

    I think, though, that if I started wearing a head-
    covering in daily life, my husband would have a
    cow. In fact, I am sure of that. 8o) It may even
    be hard on him if I start using a talit during ser-
    vices. MtnWalker likes strong women who are
    independent and self-sufficient in life and in
    their life-choices.

    To those of you who cover, would you cover if
    your husband did not want you to do so?
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Question for those who say 1 Cor. 11 is a "cultural" thing, (I haven't decided yet.)

    Let's say that Paul is indeed concerned about culture, and that the church is under an obligation to observe that culture and maintain the gender distinctions in dress, as defined by that culture.

    I took the girls with me to Wal-Mart the other day. (They all wear pants.) But as usual they had to go to the bathroom.

    So, we go. Saw something that got me to thinking. The girls went into the door that had the symbol of a woman. How did I know it was a woman? Did the figure have long hair? A bow? A ruffly shirt? Nope.

    The figure had a skirt.

    The male figure had none.

    Now, as our culture recognizes the skirt as the distinguishing article of feminine atire, could we substitute the word skirt for veil, and say that any woman praying or prophesying with something other than a skirt is in disobedience to the admonition of I Cor. 11?

    [ December 03, 2002, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  6. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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    Dear Sister Abiyah,
    For me personally when I felt the Holy Spirit calling me to wear the headship veiling I prayed and then I approached my husband. I told him that I had been reading and studying these verses and felt God telling me to do this. I asked him if he would not mind if I did and I told him I did not want to cause him any embarrassment. He told me to do it.

    If at that point he had told me not to do it I probably would not have done it. Because as I was studying it I realized that it was all about God's order.

    I know there are some who believe that a woman should cover their heads even if their husbands oppose the idea because they are to win their husbands without a word. So, they should put the veil on, submit and not say anything to their husbands about it. I think each situation is different.

    If a husband or father specifically said, "Do not wear that covering," then maybe the woman should not, except in her private prayer closet.

    Dear Brother Aaron,
    I am not sure I understand your question. Are you saying that it is possible that the veil distinguishes a man from a woman in certain cultures?

    HCL
     
  7. Miss Maggie

    Miss Maggie New Member

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    Hey Abiyah
    Thanks for sharing about the other women at your synagogue (sp?). I have to admit the truth here, I never asked my dear hubby if I had his permission to wear a covering. I come from a traditionally matriarchal family. I wasn't about to get a mere (forgive me) man's permission on whether or not to wear a symbol of submission. I know a better woman would have asked, but I didn't. I just wore it. Then after a couple of months, when he figured out that it wasn'a passing phase, like when I decided to only wear dark colored skirts (that lasted a month before the red one came out of the mothballs), he asked me if I intended to keep wearing it. I said yes, and since then he has pretty much come to beleive the same as I do on it. I think he likes the fringe benefits that go along with the covering. As a matter of fact, :D I know he does.

    If he told me to stop wearing it, as a matter of submission, I would have to. As an empowered succesful woman in the 21st century, I would be shocked that he thinks he has the right to tell me what I do and don't wear on my head. This is admittedly ironic, but true. I honestly don't think I can answer this question, because I haven't actually experienced it. Fred has asked me not to wear it to the Lawyers, but that was the only time. I had to go to court once because a big truck ran into me at a stop light (no one was hurt but the car), and I wore it. When I wear the short one, folks don't notice or think of it much, except when I wear a big cross necklace with it. I hope this answers your question. If you have any others, feel free to ask.

    Lone Wolf,

    Thanks so much for sharing about your church. It does me good to know that other women are doing this too. What kind do they wear, if you don't mind me asking? Are they bonnets, or scarves, or shalls?

    Aaron,

    I know what you mean about noticing the little things like the picture on the lady's room door has a skirted genderless being on it, representing woman. Sounds like you are thinking about things. Lots of women start by wearing a skirt more often than not, and just let things go from there. If you are being called in this direction, I encourage you to experiment. If you feel good in a skirt, keep it up. If you feel silly, you dont' have to continue. Most importantly, pray. This is about your relationship with God, no one else's. You will figure out what's best. No one else can do it for you.

    Good luck on your journey.

    :)Maggie
     
  8. Molly

    Molly New Member

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    Do you feel that some women are called for this, and maybe not others? Otheres may be called to something else? As long as a woman obeys what they feel convicted to do, it doesn' matter if we are all called for the samethings?
    Just asking what people are really thinking instead of jumping to conclusions.
    Wuld you pm me one too, I don't feel convicted in the least, but would like to understand where people are coming from on this type of issue.
    Thanks Suzanne
    </font>[/QUOTE]Katie,I do not believe that the HS gives people different ways of living and all those are God's ways.I believ in God's guidance and sovereignty,but we can not always understand all of that. I believe we should follow what we are *sure of* which would be what the Bible teaches about who we are to be.

    I won't go into the head coverings or dresses only conversation,but I just wanted to give my 2 cents on the guidance issue. It is not some mystical seeking God's will,open door closed door kind of thinking that is biblical thinking....this is not what I see the Bible teaching,but in contrast to that,I see the Bible teaching and giving clear direction on evrything pertaining to godliness.
     
  9. Miss Maggie

    Miss Maggie New Member

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    Howdy HCL, thanks for the links above and the testimony. You asked me before about the protection I feel from the covering. I feel unusually inelequent about my words here, so bear with me.

    My hubby can't go out with me much, so I am very independant as a result. Fred (dh) works on the road quite a bit, and is often gone for a few days at a time. When he is home, he prefers to be at home, because of his agoraphobia. It dawned on me last year, in the early fall, that one of the good things a huband did, was be there with you when you face challenging cirucmstances out in the world. My husband isn't available to do this. He can't walk with me arm in arm when I walk the dogs in the morning. He can't attend school functions, or cub scouts, or wrestling meets. He's not there to go into the men's bathroom with the boys, or to help me pick out christmas gifts at Walmart.

    Now I didn't have a father as a young girl, so this made me very vulnerable to men, especially as a young woman. I found myself on the receiving end of a great deal of masculine attention that I didn't want. The problem was that I never learned the skills to turn the attention off. It's like I have this vulnerability that some men see and think about a whole lot. If I had Fred on my arm, they would always walk the other direction, no matter what. But that isn't an option for me.

    THe covering is like my surrogate Fred. Any vulnerability I have that makes men want to pay attention to me changes. Instead of the men having inappropriate feelings toward me or my vulnerability, they just have helpful feelings instead. Guys open the doors for me. They help me by checking on my boys in the men's room. I get a lot of good grandpa hugs. The covering changed things for me. It helped my normal southern, feminine way, be interpreted in a different light. I won't go out without the covering. I need the protection it provides.

    There are lots of reasons women cover. I don't know what's best for any one else. I only know that I needed something so desperately. I was hurting, and searching for a solution. Then the Lord comforted me and gave me exactly what I needed. I cannot express the releif and the joy I have felt since God lifted the burden of my vulnerablility and put His protection on me. It is such a blessing, it literally brings tears to my eyes.

    :)sniffly
    Maggie
     
  10. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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    Sister Maggie,
    That is a great description about how the Lord has used it protect you. I notice the same thing that men are much more willing to be helpful with me since the covering. It seems to bring out good qualities.

    It has also helped me to trust more. I too did not have my father raise me most of my life and so I have had a terrible time trusting God, my husband and men in general. As I am writing this I am realizing that this was yet another lesson that the Lord was showing me. Trust.

    HCL
     
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    My question was for those who believe 1 Cor. 11 is to be interperted in light of culture. I edited my post to reflect that. [​IMG]
     
  12. Miss Maggie

    Miss Maggie New Member

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    Aaron, you are a guy. Oooppps! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Oh my land!!! I'm so sorry, I made a mistake. I referred to you as a female up there in the thread. LOL. Sorry about that.

    "To err is human, to fogive, divine" I hope you'll forgive my erronious assumption.

    :)Maggie
     
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    LOL!

    I was wondering if you had thought I was jabbing you girls and were jabbing me back.

    ;)
     
  14. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    After reading the postings, I wonder why it isn't mentiond that 1 Cor. 11 is talking about a woman's hair being her covering.

    1 Cor. 11:15) But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

    Where do you all get that one should cover a woman's head with something like a hat or veil?

    Just curious,
    Carol
     
  15. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    Thank you for your answers! I appreciate know-
    ing what you would do if your husband did not
    want you to wear a head covering.

    Boy, mine just put me in my place! I asked him,
    and he basically told me that there is nothing
    wrong with it, but that is not what the Scriptures
    intended. 8oD He added that for me, it would be
    rather antiquated.

    But he's in his closet, getting out the tallit I bought
    for him years ago, just so he could own one, long
    before I became Torah observant. Intrerestingly,
    when we took it out of the package, we found that
    it is the size for a woman or child.

    Guess what, people! I now have a tallit!

    (But will she wear it?)

    8o)

    P.S. Please pardon my spelling! I did not realize
    I have been missspelling "tallit." My keyboard
    HATES double letters, and I often have to go
    back and correct my spelling as a result. When a
    double L is misssing, it is hard to spot.

    [ December 04, 2002, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  16. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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    Dear Sister Carol,
    There are a few reasons to believe that the covering spoken of in the preceding verses is an actual piece of cloth and not just the hair. The first is that in verse five we are told in 1 Cor 11:5, "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonourneth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

    From this verse it seems to indicate by the words "prayer and prophesy" that this can be be put on and taken off. Hair cannot do that. It has given us that during times of prayer and prophesy the woman's head is to be covered. Otherwise it might have read something like, "All Christian women need to have long hair" and not qualified a certain time for doing it. The hair cannot be put on for prayer nor taken off during times of non-prayer.

    Also in the next verse six it says,"For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered."

    I believe that if it was only the hair than this verse makes absolutley no sense. Because shorn means cut off. And shaven means shaven.

    So, then it would be saying if the woman does not have long hair (not covered) let her cut it short (be shorn) or shave it.

    So, it would be saying if she has short hair let her have short hair or shaven hair.

    But even more important is that even unsaved women have long hair. So, the long hair on a born again Christian woman would not show to be any different from the long hair on an unsaved woman unsaved woman.

    And the best way to interpret Scripture is by using other Scripture. And I have found a few verses from the Old Testament that help to understand this. If you read Numbers chapter five you will find out what they did with women who were thought to be adulterous. Part of it included uncovering their hair in:

    Numbers 5:18, "And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head...." If her hair had to be uncovered for this it was at one point covered.

    And this verse:
    In Isaiah 47:2-3, "Take the millstones, and grind meal; uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass out river. Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen..."

    HCL

    [ December 04, 2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Headcoveredlady ]
     
  17. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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    Sister Abiyah,
    What is a Talit? Can you explain more to me?

    HCL
     
  18. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    A tallit is a four-cornered "prayer shawl," worn
    at services. Most attach tzitzit to the corners.
    Numbers 24:5, 6 mentions them, according to
    some. It is the fringed garment we were told to
    wear, and the tzitzit are the fringes written of in
    Numbers 15:37 - 41.

    Mine is a regular Jewish tallit, so the tzitzit are
    white. Most Messianics wear one thread of blue
    in each tzitzit. I prefer the thread of blue in them,
    so I will probably replace them eventually.

    Perhaps I should add that a tallit is worn covering
    the head completely during prayer; otherwise, it
    is worn over the shoulders.

    [ December 04, 2002, 04:30 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  19. Miss Maggie

    Miss Maggie New Member

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    Originally posted by Aaron:
    Nah, I'm not that subtle. ;) I just got mixed up. Thanks for understanding.

    [​IMG] Maggie
     
  20. Thankful

    Thankful <img src=/BettyE.gif>

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    Does a wig count as a head covering?
     
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