1 John 2:2

[QUOTE35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

][/QUOTE]

I will believe Dan4 on this one.


God's will is always done.
If God willed all men without exception to be saved,all men would be saved.
The fact that he tells many to depart indicates he does not will all to be saved

 

God's will is not always done.
God's will was not done when two terrorists crashed planes into the WTC.
That was not God's will.
It is not God's will for young girls to be raped and have abortions.
For you to claim as much is to attribute evil to God and make him the author of all such evil.

God's will is not done in your life every time you sin. And you do sin, for the Bible says you do. And yet we are to pray: "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." But we know that no matter how hard we try His will, will never be done as it is done in heaven. It is only a goal that we can work toward.

God's will does not get done. It does not get done because of the depravity and frailty of the human heart. It does not get done because God himself has given man a mind, a will to choose to do God's will or not to do God's will.

 

In Isa 10 God allowed the assyrians to come against the people of God notice in verse 5... They were used of God to punish the nation,later on they were punished.
Again you describe a God who is not in control of all things.The God of the bible is.

Your position on 1Jn2;2 denys the actual substitutionary atonement,and makes the word propitiation void of its biblically intended meaning. Your view followed through using biblical language leads to universalism,which you yourself would agree is heretical.
I am glad that the atonement is able to save to the uttermost,yes that is a wonderful teaching.

Jesus paid for each and every sin of actual persons....not sin generically. He died in place of His people as He covenanted to do.

 

Not true. I quote the verse word for word, and then you argue against it. Who, therefore are you arguing against? Not me.

Then we all ought to believe it.

Show me the words of Jesus Himself where he indicated that he was dying only for the Jews. You are reading into the Scriptures that which is not there.
The gospels do not teach that.
Acts does not teach that.
The Epistles do not teach that.

 

There are texts everywhere...notice he accomplished redemption he did not just make a salvation possible. It was a definate atonement.

 

Actually you didn't quote it "word for word" as you claim.

- your version "for he is the propitiation for all the sins of all the people of all the world of all time"

- Bible = "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

slight different there. So is not true to say somebody is arguing against the Scripture there. They are arguing with you.


Show me the words of Jesus Himself where he indicated that he was dying only for the Jews.[/quote]um...who teaches that? If that was the case, I believe all of us would have a problem. If you mean did Jesus came to die for the sheep? "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." The sheep are those that in the end are saved (Matthew 25).

 

The above is John 10:11. Let's look at verse 9 and 10.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. (John 10:9-10)
--The only way a person becomes a sheep is to believe on Christ, and Christ gives that person eternal life. Take the passage in its full context. He must enter through the door. He must make that decision of his own will. Christ must open the door for him. But he is the one that must of his own will desire to go in.

These are the words of Paul to the elders of the Ephesian church.
Christ shed his blood for all who believe in him and consequently become part of his church. Isn't that the meaning here?

IOW, Christ became man that he could die for the sins of all mankind. The expression that he took upon himself the seed of Abraham simply refers to the incarnation: deity putting on flesh.

Just like 1John 2:2 He obtained eternal redemption for us and for the whole world. This is taking the totality of Scripture into consideration. The author of Hebrews uses "us" including himself, but also including those that he is writing to. In other words it is generic--including all who believe on him and have found redemption through him.

The ones that are sanctified are the ones that have believed out of their own free will.
The Holy Ghost is a witness to us who have believed. We believed because we made the choice to believe.
Verses 16 and 17 are a quote from the OT and are prophetic looking forward to the MK (or end of the Trib) when the nation of Israel will look to Christ as their Messiah and be saved (Rom.11:22).

Yes, he accomplished redemption.
Yes, he made salvation possible.
Yes, it was a definite atonement. It was definite in that it was specific, real, historic, but it was also sufficient in that it sufficiently made the payment for all the sins of the world. It satisfied the demands of God for all people, that whosoever would believe on him should be saved.

 

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (Matthew 25:32)
The judgment of the nations has nothing to do with this age of grace, with our salvation, with those that believe today as being sheep. To use that portion of Scripture to prove your point is to rip Scripture right out of its context.

 

Here is a good answer to that passage:

Link: http://www.objectivegospel.org/reformed/BigThree.shtml

 

First, way to ignore my pointing out your dishonesty. Care to address your changing the words of Scripture and calling your words Scripture? Or are you just going to ignore that? Should I remind you?

- your version "for he is the propitiation for all the sins of all the people of all the world of all time"

- Bible = "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

of which you stated...

Secondly, I didn't take anything out of context. Go read again. I was showing who the Bible speaks about in reference to sheep. I know exactly what Matthew 25 is speaking about, specifically in verses 31-46. The passage is showing how Jesus will separate the sheep(saved) and the goats(unsaved). Its a judgment of people and not nations.

And in all that, you as usual either missed the point or ignored it because you didn't like the answer. (you know, like me pointing out how the Bible doesn't always use the word "world" to mean every single person [Luke 2:1])

 

I answered this post. The KJV was honest in translating this verse. If you read it they put the words "the sins" in italics showing that that they were not in the originals. They did that because the statement makes better sense when they are included. I believe these scholarly people had better sense and education than you have to realize that the words belong in there as the object of the prepositional phrase in the first part of the verse which is implied in the second part of the verse. It is quite clear.

Thus my conclusion remains the same. Whether those two little words are left in or not, the meaning of the verse does not change. Your argument is not with me; it is with God.

I even quoted the passage for you and you still do not believe. It is a judgment of the nations.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
--When will Jesus COME in his glory, and when will he sit on the throne of His glory? This is at the beginning of the MK.
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (Matthew 25:31-32)
--Again, take up your argument with God. IT clearly says nations. Why are you trying to change it to something it doesn't say. I take the Word a face value. Apparently you don't.

Here is the point: I will even use a more modern translation for your sake:

and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. (1 John 2:2) ASV
--Christ is the propitiation for...the sins of the whole world.
Christ is the propitiation for...sins...for the whole world. Leave out certain phrases and get down to the meat of the matter and see that that is what it says. He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world--each and every person. No fact can be any clearer than this one.

 

A believer becomes a believer by trusting Christ.

Even John himself said that they don't have to be under God's wrath:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

Their sins are forgiven when the trust Christ, thus he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world--not just for our sins.

It gives great comfort not only to all believers, but to all who are potential believers. Thus he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

 

DHK, thank you for your response, but lets look at what you say;

No......the sheep are given by the Father to the Son in the covenant of Redemption......goats are not given. You can only believe if you are a sheep.
Jn 10:26....you believe not....BECAUSE....you are not MY Sheep.
This is the testimony of the same chapter,you cannot twist away from it.

next;

The sheep are made willing in the day of His power,psalm110
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Again the scriptural testimony speaks of God's will not mans.
The golden calf of "free will" is not found here or anywhere else.

next;

this is semi pelagianism at best...a false theory.

Acts 20:28- He purchased the Church of God with His own blood. He died for the CHURCH, ....before they believed on Him....not consequently


next:

No ...wrong again! It does not say he died for the seed of Adam.[that would be all mankind] It says he died for the seed of Abraham...the elect. Gal.3:16-29
Jesus is the promised seed...singular.And the elect are In Union with Him by Spirit baptism. Just like when zacheus was saved,,,why did salvation come to his house;

Only the elect sheep, the seed of abraham are lost and going to be found.
The goats are right where they should be.....lost and going to hell justly for their sins.

next;

No. wrong once again...Hebrews 9:12 does not speak about the whole world.It speaks about the covenant children.
1 jN 2:2 just tells us they are scattered throughout the world,not just in Israel.51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

next;

You are the only one saying those who believe do so ...because of what you call......"free will'.... again the scripture never uses this term as you do.
The only language that sounds like this is one ,maybe two references to giving a freewill offering, that is an offering that was not required by the law, in the Ot.
There is no language ever used in any salvation context using that language, as it is a false philisophical idea.

 

Four pages of Calvinists advocating Limited Atonement, i.e. 1 John 2:2 does not mean Jesus became the propitiation not only for us but also for the whole world. 1 John is addressed to believers (those whose sins have been forgiven 1 John 2:12, so the us is believers and the also refers to non-believers. Together the whole world. The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29.

Calvinism simply rewrites verses or changes the meaning of world to pour mistaken doctrine into the text.

 

So, we haven't got enough to wonder, worry, fret and argue with one another about, now we're digging up nine-month-old threads to debate?

 

Nine months? This thread started in January 2007. :laugh: