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#2 Defending Eternal Security

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Hope of Glory, Mar 9, 2006.

  1. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Amen, very well said!

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Shiloh

    Shiloh New Member

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    1.Eve sinned in the garden, however she wasn't cast out until Adam sinned. Adam was her husband (head) We will not be cast until our Head sins, Eph.5:23...and I have good news. Our Head can't sin because He has no sin nature.
    2. Eph.2:6 We that are saved are already seated figuratively "with Him" in Heaven.
    I don't know how this can even be an issue on a BAPTIST board.
     
  3. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    My thoughts exactly!!

    Seated in the heavenlies---what glory to know---its futuristic---yet is right now!! RIGHT NOW---we(saved people) are seated firm!!

    Now---for all who believe one can loose salvation----does God play "Musical Chairs"??????
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    I'm back.

    This is little bit off the track. But, I still discuss focus on salvation issue relate with this topic.

    I want you to ponder very serious.

    I would like to discuss with you about dispensationalism issue relates with salvation.

    I notice over 90% of dispensationalists believe in eternal security salvation.

    Most IFB(Independent Fundamental Baptist) and SBC are dispensationalists. In America, about 98% or 99% of IFB and SBC believe in onced saved always saved same as eternal security salvation.

    Many SBC & IFB pastors were graduated from college, their colleges which teaching on dispensationalism. That why, many SBC & IFB pastors were learning from their teachers on dispensationalism. Not only on dispensationalism, also, they were learning from their teachers on security salvation.

    That why many IFB & SB pastors are teaching on dispensationalism & security salvation to their congregation today.

    I would like to explaining you what dispensationalism teaching on salvation. They teaching there are salvation plans of different ages.

    1. Old Testament Period - Conditional security salvation: Faith on God, Obeying the laws, doing daily animal offerings to forgive their sins often and often.

    2. New Testament Period - Unconditional security salvation: Saved by the grace through faith, not of works. Only believe on Christ, plus nothing.

    3. Tribulation Period - Conditional security salvation: Grace gones, Holy Spirit departs. keep faith on Christ, take Golden Rules, do not worship the beast, do not take the mark of the beast

    4. Millennial Period - Unconditional security salvation/conditional security salvation: Unconditional salvation apply to people who already saved during New Testament Period prior rapture, have glorified body, nothing to be worry about salvation. Conditional salvation apply to people, who missed rapture, survived through seven year of tribulation period, will enter into millennial period with their own flesh. These people who still have flesh after they survived tribulation period to enter millennial, will have to obey their King(Jesus). Have to offering animal sacrifices before their King for to forgive their sins often and often. Survived tribulation saints will have to be dsicplined by their King with the rod. If they refuse to obey their King, will die during millennial, will go to hell.


    Does the Bible actual teaching according what dispensationalism teaches?

    Their teaching is unbiblical.

    Let's start discuss with Old Testament verses and New Testament verses, to see which one is conditional salvation or unconditional salvation.

    Let's start with Exodus 32:31-33.

    "And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot of my book."

    I ask you of this passage, tell me, which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this passage apply to us today?

    Ezekiel 3:18 "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

    Tell me of this verse. Which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today?

    Ezekiel 33:12-13 "Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness, neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; IF he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteosuness SHALL NOT be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he SHALL DIE FOR IT."

    Tell me of this passage. Which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Tell me, is this apply to you today?

    Ezekiel 33:18 "When the righteous TURNETH FROM his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."

    Tell me of this verse. Which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today?

    Suppose you saying to me of the Old Testament Period, these are overwhelming warning of conditional salvation. Then, are these still apply to you today?

    What about the New Testament Period?

    Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that enduerth to the end shall be saved."

    Tell me of this verse. Which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today?

    Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

    Tell me of this verse. Which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today?

    Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

    Tell me of this verse. Which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today?

    Matthew 24:48-51 "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

    Tell me of this passage. Which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today?

    Matthew 25:10-12 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, 'I know you NOT."

    Tell me of this passage. Which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today?

    Matthew 25:26,30 "His lord answered and said unto him, 'Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed....And CAST YE the unprofitable servant into OUTER DARKENESS: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

    Tell me of this passage(Matt. 25:24-30). Which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today?

    Matthew 25:41-45 "Then shall he say also unto themm on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee, an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."

    Tell me of this passage. Which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today?

    Luke 13:23-25 "The said one unto him, 'Lord, are there FEW that be saved? And he said unto them, STRIVE TO ENTER IN AT THE STRAIT GATE: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:"

    Tell me of this passage. Which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today?

    There are too many overwhelming proofs in the New Testament mentioned on condtional. One more passage in the N.T. I would like to ask you.

    Revelation 14:9-12 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a LOUD VOICE, IF any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

    Tell me of this passage. Which one is unconditional security salvation or condition security salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today?

    Conclusion: Tell me, does the whole Bible teaching us of unconditional security salvation? If so, then tell me, are these which shown are so overwheliming of warning with conditional? Then do you think there are half of unconditional security salvation & conditional security salvation in the whole of the Bible? If so, is there two or more different plans of salvation in the Bible?

    PLEASE PONDER [​IMG]

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: //If so, is there two or more different plans of salvation in the Bible?//

    I'm not going to answer your question.
    I really don't know how many 'different' plans of
    salvation are in the Bible.
    But I know this for sure:

    There is no 'Plan of Unsalvation' in the Bible.

    All the things that God wants us to know the most is
    repeated & repeated & repeated in the Bible.

    While 'unsalvation' might make sense
    consider these other pictures God has of Salvation:

    1. Redemption (being bought back from slavery)
    NO picture of being sold back into slavery

    2. Being born again,
    no picture of being un-'born again'

    3. being born into the Family of God
    no picture of being un-born from the Family of God

    4. being adopted into the Family of God
    no picture of being un-adopted from the Family of God.

    5. becoming part of the bride of Christ
    no picture of divorce from Christ

    6. becoming part of the body of Christ (the church)
    no picture of being 'churched' (which is actually
    'un-churched')

    Gotta go to work, I think most get the idea.

    Caveat:
    the saved person WILL DO GOOD WORKS:

    2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
    All Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God, & is profitable for doctrine, for reproofe, for correction, for instrution in righteousnesse,
    2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect*, throughly furnished vnto all good workes.

    * 'perfect' here means mature or complete
    (not 'without flaw')
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    Hey. Care to answer all of these passages with questions, please? :D

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: //Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that enduerth to the end shall be saved."

    DeafPosttrib: //Tell me of this verse. Which one is unconditional security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today? //

    This is a proof of unconditional salvation through Christ.
    What is wrong here is that many falsely ASSUME that this statement
    is true:

    he that enduerth NOT to the end shall be NOT be saved

    This statement is is NOT true (it would be conditional
    salvation).
    This statement is true; this statement is true in all dispensations:

    he that enduerth to the end shall be saved

    IT is the truth of unconditional salvation.

    This statement is false; this statement is false in all dispensations:

    he that enduerth NOT to the end shall be NOT be saved

    It is the UNTRUTH of conditional salvation.
    Jesus saves eternally, not conditionally.

    Your salvation does NOT depend on YOUR abilities;
    your salvation does depend on the supra-natural aabilities
    of Jesus, the Messiah.
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    I know you for about 5 years. You always keep on twisting scriptures, what these are not actual saying, you doing twisting in your own sentence.

    Do you actual understanding Matthew 10:22? Read Christ's word of Matt. 10:22. You seems not accept or dislike what Christ saying.

    Christ clearly telling us that we ought to be endure all the way throughout our life till death, do not quit or weary out. Because we are in the strait gate of Matt. 7:13-14 and Luke 13:24, that we are already in spiritual warfare . Matthew 24:13 is obivously speak of condition with warning. If we do not abide in Christ, shall be cast away in John 15:6. Christ commands us that we ought always be steadfast and be faithful all the times through our life. Same as Christ already endure all the way to the cross. And He overcomed them - John 16:33.

    By the way, why you not answering all of these passages with questions, that I asked you? I am waiting on you to answer them.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  9. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    I think Ed has the right interpretation here. Life certainly is something to be endured. Salvation does not immediately transport us to heaven - we still must live out our lives. Thus for Jesus to use the analogy of "enduring to the end" does not contradict with the idea of an eternal salvation.

    I find that most verses "rolled out" in the eternal security debate really were not originally written to address the issue. This applies to Mt 10:22 just as well as to Heb 6:4-6.

    I think the best answers to the debate can be found not in verses that speak of judgment but in those which describe salvation itself. The notion of passing from death to life or of being born again testify powerfully as to the permanent character of true salvation.
     
  10. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Matthew 10:22 is referring to the Kingdom, not spiritual salvation. You don't work your way into salvation.
     
  11. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Hope of Glory,

    Christ never saying, kingdom is so called, "millennial or 1000 years". Christ simple tells us, that we ought to be endure all the way to the end of our life or Lord comes. Or, if we do not endure, then we will not make it to into the narrow road to eternal life (Matt. 7:13-14; & Luke 13:24).

    By the way.

    Care to answer all of these passages with questions, please? :D

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: //Do you actual understanding Matthew 10:22?
    Read Christ's word of Matt. 10:22. You seems not accept
    or dislike what Christ saying.//

    You speak this to yourself, you need to listen.
    Here is what it says:

    Matthew 10:22B (HCSB)
    ... The one who endures to the end will be delivered.

    This you should believe. It is what Jesus said.
    It has nothing to do with
    eternal salvation. It has to do with BEING SPARED
    TROUBLE.

    The logic of the situation shows the following statement,
    derived from the previous statement must be proved
    independently of the original statement.
    It's truth or falseness is NOT determined be what Jesus
    said in the Bible in the original statement.

    The one who endures NOT to the end will NOT be delivered.

    Do you believe this statement to be true?
    If so, the onus is on you to prove it from the scripture.
    The proof of this derived statement is NOT in Matthew 10.

    Matthew 10:23 says you should run away from persecution.
    Yep, Jesus said to flee persecution. Why? Maybe He doesn't
    want many to suffer. I for one believe (but will not now prove)
    that 'MARTYRDOM' is a Gift of the Holy Spirt, given to some for
    the edification of the Whole Church. But the Gift of Martyrdom
    is NOT given to all Christians.

    Matthew 10:16 (KJV1769 Edition):
    Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:
    be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

    Is the opposite (like the statement above) true?

    Be ye therefore as slimey as snakes, and stupid as a dove.
    Of course not, the derived statement is clearly false.
    It's truth/falseness value is independent of the original statement.

    DeafPposttrib: //Christ clearly telling us that we ought to be endure all the way
    throughout our life till death, do not quit or weary out.//

    Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it! [​IMG]
    Why should we do this endurance thing? Because of what Jesus did
    for us WHEN HE SAVED US ETERNALLY. If we do the endurance thing,
    it don't get us saved. Jesus already did the endurance thing and
    makes us saved THROUGH HIS POWER MIGHT AND ENDURANCE.
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    You are partially correct, that Matt. 10:23 talking about persecution as it is contextually with verse 16-23 warning about persecution. This seems speak to Jews of Israel only. Understand, disciples were with Christ in Jerusalem in their time. He simple gave instruction with warning to them as beleievrs about the sign of persecution is about to be happen around Jerusalem & Israel, then they will have to flee into the wilderness. THat they will have to be patience out in the wilderness, that they do not be weary out, or give up while in the wilderness. OR, if they feel like give up, then they would be yeild to the soldiers and willing to accept the mark of the beast & the beat to save their life's sake. Then they will not be saved according to Rev. 13:7-18 & Rev. 14:9-12.

    Matt. 10:22 is same as Rev. 2:10 telling us, that we must be endure with trials, troubles, and persecutions till death, then will receive the crown of life.

    LOOK next verse 11 telling us, IF we overcometh them, WILL NOT HURT THE SECOND DEATH - lake of fire! OR... what if we do not endure with it, then will not receive the crown of life, and will HURT the second death-lake of fire!

    Matt. 10:16-23 do not always apply to the Jews only, also local of Israel in the end times, also, apply to us as believers anywhere, when persecution shall come upon us by follow Antichrist's revealed & order or enforce us to worship or receieve the mark, then we shall know the horrible persecution is about to coming. WE ought to flee to save our life, not only flesh, also, to delivery our soul(salvation spiritual).

    If we give up during persecution, yield to the soldiers, or police, for willing to accept the mark of the beast, or to worship, then we are DOOMED to everlasting fire!!!! - Rev. 14:9-11.

    By the way, you didn't yet answer to all passages with questions, that I asked you. I am waiting for you to answer them. :D

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: //By the way, why you not answering all of these passages
    with questions, that I asked you? I am waiting on you to answer them.//

    We are still debating the ONE that I did answer. You
    don't seem to like my answers. Anwyay, you have to work
    so you haven't got time to read my answers; I have to work so
    I don't have time to write my answers [​IMG]

    DeafPosttrib: //Do you actual understanding Matthew 10:22?
    Read Christ's word of Matt. 10:22. You seems not accept
    or dislike what Christ saying.//

    You don't like my answer. I was telling you NON-DEBATABLE FACTS
    about logic (the mathametics of communication).
    YOu didn't appear to disagree with me, but not to understand
    the facts, the way of God's creation of the universe.

    I still await a verse that proves this argument you appear to believe:

    he that enduerth NOT to the end shall NOT be saved

    It is a fact:
    the proposition:
    he that enduerth NOT to the end shall be NOT be saved
    is NOT true just because this statement is true:
    he that enduerth to the end shall be saved

    The obviously true statement is right from the Bible.
    If the statement with the 'nots' is true, it should be mentioned
    a time or two in the Bible and can easily be found.


    DeafPosttrib: //Do you actual understanding Matthew 10:22?
    Read Christ's word of Matt. 10:22. You seems not accept
    or dislike what Christ saying. //

    I understand Matthew 10:22; perchance you do not.

    I said this is true because Jesus said it:
    he that enduerth to the end shall be saved
    Do you agree this statement is true?

    I said this statement is NOT TRUE just because the
    above statement is true:
    he that enduerth NOT to the end shall be NOT be saved
    Do you believe this is a true statement?

    The mathematics of logic is that a statement of the
    form (where ~ = not): "If ~A, then ~B" has a truth/falsness
    unrelated to the truth/falsness of "If A, then B".

    So if it is correct that:
    he that enduerth NOT to the end shall be NOT be saved
    is a true statement, it must be proved from the Written WOrd of
    God: the Holy Bible.


    Revelation 2:11B (KJV1769):
    ... He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    This statement is true. It is right there in the Bible.

    The truth of a statement made from this is NOT DEPENDENT UPON
    the truth of the statement above:

    He that overcometh NOT shall be hurt of the second death.
    Yet, you say it is true:

    DeafPosttrib speaking of Revelation 2:11B:
    //LOOK next verse 11 telling us, IF we overcometh them,
    WILL NOT HURT THE SECOND DEATH - lake of fire! OR... what if we
    do not endure with it, then will not receive the crown of life,
    and will HURT the second death-lake of fire!//

    Here is a non-debatable fact from the mathematics of logic:

    The mathematics of logic is that a statement of the
    form (where ~ = not): "If ~A, then ~B" has a truth/falsness
    unrelated to the truth/falsness of "If A, then B".

    Which does mean also:
    If "If A, then ~B" is true; then
    you cannot know from it if "If ~A, then B" is true.
    The two are independent propositions.

    //By the way, you didn't yet answer to all passages with questions,
    that I asked you. I am waiting for you to answer them. //

    Patience is a virtue ;)
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    Twist! Twist! Twist! Obivously, you dislike verses, what it saying.

    By the way, anyone of you didn't answer all passages with questions. I am still waiting for you. :D

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Deafposttrib: //Let's start discuss with Old Testament verses
    and New Testament verses,
    to see which one is conditional salvation or unconditional salvation.//

    Alright.

    Deafposttrib: //Let's start with Exodus 32:31-33.
    "And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people
    have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
    Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me,
    I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
    And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Whosoever hath sinned against me,
    him will I blot of my book."
    I ask you of this passage, tell me, which one is unconditional security
    salvation or conditional security salvation?
    Second, tell me, is this passage apply to ustoday?// //

    The passage is good today.
    The one who dies unsaved dies temporaly and eternally.
    The one who dies saved dies temporaly ONLY.

    Deafposttrib: //Ezekiel 3:18 "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely
    die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn
    the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life;
    the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity;
    but his blood will I require at thine hand."
    Tell me of this verse. Which one is unconditional
    security salvation or conditional security salvation?
    Second, tell me, is this apply to you today? // //

    This is still good in this age and the next, just as it was good in
    the OT times. This is about being lost, not about salvation.
    This is about those who are saved being responsible for not ministering
    to the lost.

    Deafposttrib: //Ezekiel 33:12-13 "Therefore, thou son of man,
    say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the
    righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression:
    as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall
    thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness,
    neither shall the righteous be able to live for his
    righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall
    say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; IF
    he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity,
    all his righteosuness SHALL NOT be remembered; but
    for his iniquity that he hath committed, he SHALL DIE FOR IT."
    Tell me of this passage. Which one is unconditional security
    salvation or conditional security salvation? Tell me,
    is this apply to you today? //

    Obviously Ezekiel would see things different, if he had read the
    New Testament before writing. This passage is to short to figure
    out what he is talking about, but it it probably profound and always true.

    Deafposttrib: //Ezekiel 33:18 "When the righteous TURNETH FROM
    his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."
    Tell me of this verse. Which one is unconditional security
    salvation or conditional security salvation? Second,
    tell me, is this apply to you today? //

    This is about temporal living & dying. YOur questions are about
    eternal living & dying. Your questions do not pertain to the passage.

    Deafposttrib: //Suppose you saying to me of the Old Testament Period,
    these are overwhelming warning of conditional salvation.
    Then, are these still apply to you today? //

    Only on a case by case basis. Some truths are conditional.
    the truth "don't wiz on the electric fence" is meaningless to city folks
    and to those country boys prior to 1917.


    Deafposttrib: //What about the New Testament Period?

    The New Testament contains the full truth of Messiah Jesus.
    There is no higher truth. Still, Man is concerned about the temporal;
    God about the eternal.

    Deafposttrib: //Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for
    my name's sake: but he that enduerth to the end shall be saved."
    Tell me of this verse. Which one is unconditional security salvation
    or conditional security salvation?
    Second, tell me, is this apply to you today? //

    This is the verse that you won't listen to me about. I've got God's
    truth for you, you don't reject me, you reject God.
    You also look very foolish when you have a montra 'answer my questions'
    and refuse to answer mine:

    Is this a true statement?
    he that enduerth NOT to the end shall NOT be saved

    If it is true, prove it from the Bible.

    Deafposttrib: //Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end,
    the same shall be saved."
    Tell me of this verse. Which one is unconditional security
    salvation or conditional security salvation?
    Second, tell me, is this apply to you today? //

    THis passage speaks of conditional temporal salvation and
    unconditional eternal salvation. Those who do not endure to the
    end of physical life shall still have eternal life IF THEY ARE SAVED BY JESUS.
    Hose to endure to the end of physical life shall have eternal life
    IF THEY ARE SAVED BY JESUS. Enduring is about physical life; salvation
    is about eternal life.

    Deafposttrib: //Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs,
    and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders
    insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
    Tell me of this verse. Which one is unconditional security salvation
    or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me, is this
    apply to you today? //

    This applies to all of us. It is one of the proof texts of
    unconditional security salvation. It says that it is imposible to
    deceive the elect of God. So it would be impossible to get them
    to, of their own free will, reject Christ.

    Deafposttrib: //Matthew 24:48-51 "But and if that evil servant shall
    say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin
    to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken
    The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh
    not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of.
    And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with
    the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
    Tell me of this passage. Which one is unconditional security
    salvation or conditional security salvation? Second, tell me,
    is this apply to you today? //

    This is security salvation and available for all.
    We who have been saved by faith in Messiah Jesus become as
    children of God. We all serve GOd who can override our free will
    and force us to serve Him. Pharoah in Moses'es time was
    a servent of God, but unwilling. Moses was a servent of God
    and willing.


    Deafposttrib: //Matthew 25:10-12 "And while they went to buy,
    the bridegroom came, and they that were ready went
    in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord,
    Lord open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you,
    'I know you NOT."
    Tell me of this passage. Which one is unconditional
    security salvation or conditional security salvation?
    Second, tell me, is this apply to you today? //

    You-all need to accept the Lord Jesus NOW and receive his unconditional
    security salvation and Saving Grace. Jesus will make you a doer of good
    works so everyone can see you did get saved. YOu are saved forever,
    starting from when Jesus saves you, though the pleaseures and pains
    of life, through death (physical), through the pretribulation rapture/resurrection,
    throughout eternity (no end, by definition).
    I'm us saved today as I was 54 years ago when I first beleived that
    God had raised Jesus from the Dead and first confessed 'Jesus is my Lord'.
    Indeed, now I confess again "Jesus is still my Lord" and I'm as saved now
    as I will be on that day (should I die) when I get resurrected by Jesus.
    I'm as saved now as I will be on that day (should I live till then) when
    I get raputred by Jesus. Jesus does salvation eternal. Jesus is Lord.
    Jesus is Savior. My salvation is done my JESUS (ever hear the phrase
    "Jesus saves"? My salvation is NOT about me, but about Messiah Jesus.

    Deafposttrib: //Matthew 25:26,30 "His lord answered and said unto him,
    'Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that
    I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed....And
    CAST YE the unprofitable servant into OUTER DARKENESS:
    there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
    Tell me of this passage(Matt. 25:24-30). Which one
    is unconditional security salvation or conditional security
    salvation? Second, tell me, is this apply to you today? //

    It is about conditional lostness (he could get saved, if He would believe
    in Jesus) and UNCONDITIONAL SECURITY SALVATION. Jesus is forever,
    and my SALVATION IS HIS.

    Deafposttrib: //Matthew 25:41-45 "Then shall he say also unto
    themm on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting
    fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungered,
    and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me
    no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in:
    naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison,
    and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him,
    saying, Lord, when saw we thee, an hungered, or athirst,
    or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and
    did not minister to thee? Then shall he answer them,
    saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it
    not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."
    Tell me of this passage. Which one is unconditional security
    salvation or conditional security salvation?
    Second, tell me, is this apply to you today? //

    This does not apply to you or to me. This is about the
    Sheep & Goat NATION judgement at the end of the tribultion period.
    It is about nations made up of lost people who will get a second chance
    to find Jesus as their Savior in the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.
    THis passage is about those who mistreated Yisrael in the tribulation
    period. These nations will be dumped into temporal hell after
    the judgement and into eternal hell (AKA: lake of fire) at the
    Great White Throne judgement).

    Deafposttrib: //Luke 13:23-25 "The said one unto him, 'Lord,
    are there FEW that be saved? And he said unto them, STRIVE TO ENTER
    IN AT THE STRAIT GATE: for many, I say unto you,
    will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once
    the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door,
    and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door,
    saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer
    and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:"
    Tell me of this passage. Which one is unconditional
    security salvation or conditional security salvation? Second,
    tell me, is this apply to you today? //

    This is aobut conditional lostness.
    BTW, there is no such thing as "conditional security salvation"
    so all these repetitions are foolish. "conditional security
    salvation" is BEING LOST.

    Deafposttrib: //There are too many overwhelming proofs in the New Testament
    mentioned on condtional. One more passage in the N.T. I would like to ask you.

    Conditional Salvation = LOST

    Deafposttrib: //Revelation 14:9-12 "And the third angel followed them,
    saying with a LOUD VOICE, IF any man worship the beast and his
    image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which
    is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
    and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence
    of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever
    and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship
    the beast and his image, and whosever receiveth the mark of his
    name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep
    the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
    Tell me of this passage. Which one is unconditional security salvation
    or condition security salvation? Second, tell me,
    is this apply to you today? //

    This is not applicable to people in this age.
    It applies to the end of those LOST PEOPLE in the Beast's kingdom.

    Deafposttrib: //Conclusion: Tell me, does the whole Bible teaching
    us of unconditional security salvation? If so, then tell me,
    are these which shown are so overwheliming
    of warning with conditional? Then do you think there are
    half of unconditional security salvation & conditional
    security salvation in the whole of the Bible?
    If so, is there two or more different plans of salvation in the Bible? //

    "conditional security salvation" is a code phrase for LOST.
    THe 'plan of salvation' is always the same:
    Jesus saves. However, in the last age, prior to Jesus, there
    was nothing known about Jesus, the person. They looked forward
    to the Messiah. They were saved by believing Messiah would come.
    When Messiah came, he was Jesus.
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    Thanks for answering my questions. But, you seem not answer straight out to my question - 'WHICH ONE is 'unconditional security salvation' or 'conditional security salvation". Your answerings look flaws.

    Also, I am promise I will reply back to you of your answers on Sunday, because I have lot to do and do errands. I will reply back to your answers on these passages with questions.

    Have a nice day! God bless you!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: // Christ simple tells us, that we ought to be endure all
    the way to the end of our life or Lord comes.
    Or, if we do not endure, then we will not make it to into
    the narrow road to eternal life (Matt. 7:13-14; & Luke 13:24).//

    Jesus says in Matthew 7:13-14 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible
    /Holman, 2003/ ):

    Enter through the narrow gate; because the gate is wide
    and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there
    are many who go through it.
    14. How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that
    leads to life; and few find it.


    I'm afraid many (20%) people who read this sayng of Jesus
    misunderstand what 'many' and 'few' mean. Numerically
    'many' and 'few' can mean almost anything. Above I show I
    suspect the 'many' I'm using could be 20%, the percentage of
    people who misread this passage. That being the case then
    'few' would have to mean something &gt; (less than) 20.
    These who misunderstand the scripture read it:

    Enter through the narrow gate; because the gate is wide
    and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there
    are many (99.9%) who go through it.
    14. How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that
    leads to life; and few (00.1% or 1 in 1,000) find it.

    Of the 6,000,000,000 (six Billion) on earth today, even
    1 in 1,000 means there are 6,000,000 people who have found
    the narrow way. (some think there are less than 10,000, but
    we won't worry about them). Today there are over 2,000,000,000
    (two Billion) who call themselves Christians. What if they
    all were?

    Enter through the narrow gate; because the gate is wide
    and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there
    are many (67%) who go through it.
    14. How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that
    leads to life; and few (33%) find it.

    Needless to say, this statement of Jesus is true, even if
    all those called Christians were really Christians.

    THe decision if 'few' means 1 in 1,000 OR if 'few' means
    1/3 is AN OPINION. What Jesus said is:

    Enter through the narrow gate; because the gate is wide
    and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there
    are many who go through it.
    14. How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that
    leads to life; and few find it.


    What you think it means is your own opinion.
    (Baptists allow other Baptists to have their own opinion;
    Baptists also are to make their own opinions - Soul Sufficency
    Doctrine, Doctrine of Priesthood of the Believer).

    DeafPosttrib: // Christ simple tells us, that we ought to be endure all
    the way to the end of our life or Lord comes.
    Or, if we do not endure, then we will not make it to into
    the narrow road to eternal life (Matt. 7:13-14; & Luke 13:24).//

    OOPS, Matthew 7:13-14 does not say what DPT says Jesus said.

    Luke 13:24 is a parallel passage with Matthew 7:13-14.
    Luke 13:24 does not say what DPT says Jesus said.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: //Thanks for answering my questions. But, you seem not answer straight out to my question - 'WHICH ONE is 'unconditional security salvation' or 'conditional security salvation".//

    It is hard to answer straight to crooked questions :(

    DeafPosttrib: //Have a nice day! God bless you! //

    And may God bless you double what you asked for me. Amen!
    BTW, it rained 2.4 inches here in the past two days.
    This is twelve times the rain that fell here from the
    Middle of September to the Middle of March (6 months)
     
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