2 Peter 3:9

No, they graduate from Hell to the Lake of Fire.

 

We are called

I believe God has called us to subdue the earth, not the world to subdue us.

 

No. God never sent one soul to hell. They sent theirself there because they failed to repent, believe and be baptized.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Why did they not believe? God blinded their eyes and "dulled" their hearing so that His death on the cross would be accomplished. If they truly knew He was/is the Son of God, they would not have crucified Him, therefore, the scriptures would not have been fulfilled.


Here is how quickly one believed after Jesus died:

Mark 15:38And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Just as soon as Jesus died, this centurion believed that Jesus was/is the Soon of God.

Willis

 

Well said Webdog. You are correct, if Calvinism is true, why does God have to be patient and suffer for a long time for anyone to be saved? They are saved when he decides to regenerate them, and he can do that whenever he wishes.

 

So you're arguing it can't be the elect, because the elect can't perish?

Many other calls to obey the Gospel in the Scriptures have the same exact thing, about perishing, and instead of this, to believe the Gospel, pleading to the elect to be saved.


That's a weak argument you use in regards to saying the elect can't perish.

This passage is to the elect. Only the elect are saved, or, which of the saved are not elect?

:thumbs:

 

I have no problem with calling the saved elect! It's the way that the "elect" gets represented, that I have the problem with. The elect are those who are saved, but saved because they chose to believe God and what He showed them in their lost condition.

Here's are a few questions. If God calls someone and they reject them.Did they reject Him because they were of the "non-elect"? Or was it they had pride and wanted to live their life their way and not submit unto God? Or would God even call someone who is of the "non-elect"? I am not trying to start a verbal assault on you, I just want to know where you stand. Thanks in advance!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

Baloney. Who determines when a person gets saved in Calvinism? God does. God can regenerate a person any time he wants, so why would he have to be patient and longsuffering with them?

And why does God wait many years to regenerate some men, to what advantage is that? I hope you don't try to present the ridiculous argument that God wants them to live in sin for years, the Bible is full of scripture that teaches God wants men to turn from sin. Why let a man waste 60 years of his life sinning when he could be serving and glorifying God?

 

The more I learn about Calvinism, the more I am amazed that people believe it.

 

LOL. You don't have to walk on eggshells bro, as long as there is none of the name calling, accusations, and otherwise, it's cool, and you won't hear any words contrary.

That any person would reject the Gospel, they are then not His elect. Are any of the saved, not His elect?

As to "was it they had pride and wanted to live their way and not submit to God" this simply shows unwillingness to repent and rejection of the good news, although this is hypothetical in nature as far as being your illustration. Anyhow, God's goodness leads His people to repentance.

I heard a preacher say that Jesus, in Matthew, on His birth announcement to Mary, that Jesus was sent to save the world from "their" sins. Matthew 1:21 says he would save "His people" from their sins. He still preached to the crowds. All were invited. "Many are called, few are chosen." He also was and is the only One who knows who are His, and those who are not. We don't have this knowledge as He did, obviously.

As far as would God call such, well, personally, have you witnessed to some, and they mocked and rejected, or at least would not receive Christ to eternal life, and allow God to grant them repentance unto life? Was God using you to call them unto Him? Did it dminish your message any? Was the invitation given, and rejected? I have preached the Gospel in the church at services and revivals, some left and rejected this call, others believed. We don't know who is elect and who is not elect.

Better yet is the Scriptures example. In Acts we see that "some believed" and they are thus, His elect, others did not, in the exact same incident, and they are then not His elect, see Acts 17:4; Acts 28:24, yet both heard the message of God. Now I know some do later come around, after having perhaps rejected, or maybe not understanding the message, to profess faith.

- Blessings

 

Yes. Isn't that how the elect are defined...those who will never perish (John 3:16)?

Why do the elect need to be pleaded with in a monergistic model?

By the very definition of the term "elect", I think it's quite strong. I have never heard that someone chosen before the foundation of the world could possibly perish before.

Like I said prior, if it is to the elect...why is God patient with them if HE is the one giving them life to repent and believe? How can HE be patient with us?

 

I disagree. You stated elect cannot be defined as those who do believe...yet you define it as those who will believe. Fact is, believers are the elect.

 

Oh, OK. Your first question has nothing, not one thing to do with my answer to you.

You'll have to ask Sovereign God why He allows these things. Ask Him also why He allows suffering, kids to die, all of it.

None of you answered the fact that in other Scriptures perishing is there, and so is the call to the elect.

Don't get emotional about it. Respect what I say and you'll get the same back.

 

Why do the elect need to be pleaded with? Why did Jesus preach to the crowds? Why did Peter? And The Apostles? Because they were commanded to. I see no conflict with "perish" and believe being a message to the elect. It's part of the message God gives us to lead us to believe. When I heard about Christ, and Hell, and paying for my own sins in Hell, I believed and was saved.

 

Matt.19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Dear Brother,

Right there is a passage of scripture that shows one can reject Jesus after He talks to them. He came to Jesus and Jesus even beheld him and loved him, and even told him what he must do. This blows "irresistible grace" right out of the H2O, if you ask me.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, how can you correlate John 6:44 with the passage in Matt.19:16-22? It says that "one came and said unto Him.....". So he came unto Jesus and when it got to the "nuts and bolts" of salvation(dropping one's pride and coming with a broken heart saying "I'll do whatsoever you tell me to do if you will only save my soul"), he dropped the ball, and left, because he wanted his worldly goods over salvation. It's man's pride and unbelief that cause them to go to the lake of fire.

Matt.23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Jesus was willing to save Jerusalem, but they failed to believe in Him, and therefore, they(Jerusalem) was destroyed in AD 70.

i am I am!!

Willis

None that go to heaven are "non-elect". They are Elected because they chose to believe God and His word!!!:thumbs:

 

How did this turn from elect/election, to irresistible grace? Let's stay on topic, and not just cherry pick a line from one another. This is another topic.

:thumbs:

 

Read Rev. 7 the few that find it is to help others and the amount saved will be like the sand of the seashore to man.

 

I stated nothing of the sort. Here is what I said:

The problem, of course, in your post is that you have created an anachronism. You are implying that we come to Christ and then, as a result, are elect. But the text clearly states that God's choosing action, or Election, happens "Before the foundation of the world." So, textually, we come to Christ because we are already elect.
​

I will agree that "believers" are the elect. The question is how did they get to be believers? Were they elected to become such? Ephesians 1 certainly says so.

The original argument was a "chicken or egg" argument: Does election come first and lead to the elect persons becoming believers or does a person believe and then become an elect person. Again, Ephesians 1 says election comes first.

The Archangel

 

Friend, you are seemingly not understanding what irresistible grace is. Having Jesus merely "talk" to someone is not what Calvinists mean when they discuss irresistible grace. Irresistible grace deals with a change of heart, not the surrounding circumstances or even divine encounters.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

We are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. We are not chosen out side of Him. Do you believe you were you born saved? You were born in sin just like the rest of us.
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