#2 The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PRT)

God did not slice the 49 years for rebuilding the temple in Ezra and Nehemiah's day from the total 490 years. IT is simply the first 49 years of the single contiguous 490 year timeline -- obviously.

Even the man-made traiditions that DO slice up God's timeline by INSERTING undefined - long ages gaps of time into the ONE timeline -- do not try to SLICE OFF that first 49 years and separate it with an ages long undefined gap of time from the remaining years in the 490 year single contiguous timeline.

Simply put - we can not blame God for the unninspired traditions of men that DO come in and try to slice up and separate this ONE 70 weeks-of-years timeline.

The 70 weeks (490 years) are exact in going from the rebuilding of the temple in Ezra's day to the annointing of the Messiah - the work of the Messiah the cross of the Messiah and the end of probation for the Jewish nation.

They are exact.

They are reliable.

And as are ALL Timeline prophecies in scripture - they are contiguous.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The problem is that INSTEAD of saying "this is the 2nd PERSON raised in a SINGLE resurrection" as in the 2nd prong of a 5 prong fork -- the text says "this is the FIRST RESURRECTION" -- the "first fork".

Again - you simply point out your need to invent "the 2nd first resurrection" which is clearly an INSERT taking the text a direction that it is not intended to go.

I ask for another test of objectivity for you -- Let's say John WANTED to convey the idea of a SINGLE resurrection that was the FIRST resurrection -- what BETTER way than "THIS is THE First resurrection" --- what OTHER way would you suggest?

Second test of objectivity - IF the FIRST resurrection is i nfact 7 YEARS BEFORE the 2nd-first-resurrection then it is 1007 years before the real SECOND resurrection -- not 1000 years before it. Where is 1007 years mentioned by John?

 

Helen,

Rev. 16:12-16 telling us very clear, that the Lord shall come by follow after the 6th vial broken. Notice the word, 'thief' of Rev. 16:15 is clear refer to Matt. 24:37-41 about thief, also, it refers to 1 Thess. 5:2-10 talk about "thief in the night". And do not forget Rev. 3:3;5 did mentioned about thief.

Many think thief means rapture.

For example, Tim LaHaye made a novel book - "Left Behind". That passage is quoted from Matt. 24:37-41. Many believe 'left' is speak of lost people who will miss rapture will go through 7 year of Tribulation Period.

But, not what Christ was actual saying.

Matt. 24:37-41 explain about the picture or scene comparing as Noah's Day, what the flood has done to the people. The flood came and TOOK THEM ALL AWAY. 'Take him away' of Matt. 24:40-41 is speak of destroyed not "rapture". All these who are "left" are saved people shall be enter into eternal life with Christ on new earth at His coming.

Ed,

Nowhere in the Bible saying tribulation equals with wrath.

1 Thess. 3:3-4 telling us, we are appointed for tribulations, because, Christ suffered for us.

John 16:15 telling us, that we should be cheer while face tribulations, because Christ overcame them.

Wrath is for lost people only, because they reject and disobey Christ, send them away into lake of fire.

John 3:36 tells us, the wrath of God is abide upon a person, because of not believing on Christ, means a person is on the way to everlasting fire. Very simple and plain.

I will discuss more on pretribulation this weekend.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed,

Pre-Tribulation Rapture should have been abreviated as PTR instead of PRT for the consistency with the previous posts.

 

What about the earlier parts of Revelations?

I totally believe in the pre-millennial return in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As was noted earlier this is my HOPE. That Jesus will soon appear in the clouds with trump of the God, with a shout. I am excited just imagining it, and that is just in my mind. I cannot even fathom our joy. I will meet the wonderful redeemer of my soul, the One who paid my sin debt on Calvary. The one who before the foundation of the world said I'll go and pay old Eric Anderson's debt and your debt and yours and yours and yours! Oh bless His holy name, I am just tickled that Jesus is coming back! For ME and for YOU that are saved! GLORY!

OK now that I have had my shouting and typing spell let me see if I can add anything.....

Let's take a look in Revelations Chapter 5: (We see this all happens before the wrath is poured out upon the earth - notice the four and twenty elders)
We see that the four and twenty elders worship Christ - the Bible says "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation". We are redeemed only by the blood of Christ, not anything else. Grace was the reason for His shedding of blood. And faith in that grace by His blood is the only redemptive claim we have.
Also John says "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests". John says this also in Revelation 1:6 as he says "us" he refers to the saved.

We see that this all takes place before the the seals are open and the tribulation (wrath of God) begins. Notice that all the through the book of Revelations we see the elders worshiping Christ and speaking of His worthiness. Cannot see a clear representation of Israel as the nation had not yet been redeemed and it certainly was not the 144,000. I am young in the Word but I believe Christ speaks of His church, His bride. And that is us, I believe that we are the ones represented in this revelation of Heaven. Amen and God Bless. :godisgood:

 

GE

Yeah Bob! This is the longest post of yours I have not found anything I disagree on! I am really and humbly very happy!

 

GE

Dear folks, I wish to tell you, you can now find a 'Conversation' on the subject of Revelation 20:4-7 mostly, here, http://www.biblestudents.co.za . Look for the little sign, 'New', Book 6, 'Divine Priest'. It contains an addendum, the main part is not prepared properly yet. I sent it to my son to get it on the web, and hope he has done so by now. If not, try again later, perhaps tomorrow or so.
Christian regards, GE

 

GE

Such a beautiful contribution! Thank you. "I am young in the Word but I believe Christ speaks of His church, His bride. And that is us, I believe that we are the ones represented in this revelation of Heaven." You are on the right way. Press on!

Now I am old ( I think). Of my 66 years I have consciously been studying the Bible for 60 years. And still I do not know it and more often than not, do not understand it. Yet my faith and trust in its veracity and inner power has grown each and every individual day of these years. I thank God for His Word; without it I shall spiritually die, and very probably, also physically. (Yes, I have found The Word a strength to the body too, to this day. I cannot explain, but will recommend.)

You said, "We see that this all takes place before the the seals are open and the tribulation (wrath of God) begins." I believe so too. I believe the 7 last plagues is part of the hell for the wicked -- they come after Jesus will have come. It is clear -- 'c-l-e-a-r -- that the plagues do not effect the redeemed. I believe during this time the redeemed are protected with the Lamb within the New Jerusalem. It will also be time that God will renew the earth with fire. Just my believe I say. I don't want to be dogmatic about it. I am however, fully persuaded Jesus' Coming will be the end of sin and death and devil. After His Coming it shall be the New Earth and the New Heavens, without a doubt, without end!

 

BR
"I ask for another test of objectivity for you -- Let's say John WANTED to convey the idea of a SINGLE resurrection that was the FIRST resurrection -- what BETTER way than "THIS is THE First resurrection" --- what OTHER way would you suggest?"

GE
Explain to me the logic of, ... John WANTED to convey the idea of a SINGLE resurrection that was the FIRST resurrection ..."? Explain the 'objectivity' of it?! Goodness man, your head works another way mine does! Nevermind, God's thoughts are higher than the heavens higher than our thoughts, so, explain to me from the Word, that "... John WANTED to convey the idea of a SINGLE resurrection that was the FIRST resurrection ...".

What other way would I or anyone else suggest? Why not let John himself explain, yes, let him in so many exact words, define, "This The First Resurrection". Here is it, quote: "The Thousand Years This The First Resurrection". How could you improve on John - no, on Jesus, no, on Jesus, John, and, the Holy Spirit? Remember, it's not my definition, it is that of Rv20:5b.

 

Dear Ed Edwards,

You may just profit by going to http://www.biblestudents.co.za, Book 1/1 'Crucifixion' or, 'Goshen to Golgotha'. You will find 'tables' there, i.a. on the 'Seventy Weeks'. See Appendixes

I believe the '70 weeks' are an unbroken unit of 'week-years'. It says, "Seventy weeks are determined" - indicating this one whole. I don't find any difficulty in that viewpoint, at least I'm in good company, e.g., the Reformers or then some of the Reformers. All the dificulties the SDAs encounter with their view, is that they take this prophecy and let it extend beyond the Messiah. They do that by linking this prophecy with the 2300 morning and evening offerings prophecy. If they would not have done that, they never would have started with their date-settings for the Advent.

 

Would not the act of baptism be considered the "first" resurrection of any person of the Christian faith? (Romans 6:3-5): "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in the newness of life." For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his "RESURRECTION".

(Mark 16:15-16): "And he(Christ) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; and he that believeth not shall be damned.

When interpreting any symbolic or figurative language, such as that used in the Book of Revelation, would it not seem appropriate to rationalize the figurative symbolic text of Revelation with known "literal" messages from those that were inspired by the Holy Spirit? After all one does not understand something that is literal in terms of the figurative, but one should understand the "figurative" in terms of the literal passages made available for anyone to consider. So should not the act of the symbolic death of person be applied to the symbolic language of others texts? Just a thought to reason on. BD

 

HP: But does such a common sense approach sell books? :tonofbricks:

 

Depends on how much license you are interested in taking with the text of Rev 20:4-5 where we are told that those who are brought to life have ALREADY given their life for Christ and that this happens after the Rev 19 event of the appearing of Christ.

If you are willing to ignore some of those inconvenient details... then yes eventually you will get rid of enough of them to go back to go all the way back Romans 6.

 

Post-Trib only is doing surprisingly well here. I am actually shocked by that.

 

In John 14 – John tells us of THE PROMISED second coming event.

John 14

1 ""Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 ""In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 ""If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again AND receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.[/b]

Here we see two things – two events

• “I GO and prepare a place”
• 2. I WILL come again and RECEIVE you unto Myself

The first event happened 40 days after Jesus’ bodily resurrection.
The second event is THE PROMISE, hope and focus of the NT saints.

Peter tells us that this single event – THE fulfillment of the John 14 promise is THE event that all NT saints and writers focus upon.

1Peter 1
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.


10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.[/b]
12 It was [b]revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you[/b], in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you[/b] by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, [b]fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.[/b]


In his second letter Peter tells us that he considers it right to continually remind us of this SINGLE focus event!

2 Peter 1
12 Therefore, [b]I will always be ready to remind[/b] you of these things, even [b]though you already know them[/b], and have been established in the truth which is present with you.
13 [b]I consider it right[/b], as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder,[/b]

 

John speaks of that SAME promise again in full detail – describing it’s fulfillment in a two chapter detailed sequence in Rev 19-20.

It is the “FIRST resurrection” that of the “blessed and Holy”

It is the “FIRST resurrection” that of the “blessed and Holy”


Revelation 20


4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.[/b]
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


Paul gives the SAME focus on the SAME singular event in 1Thess 4, 2Thess 2 and 1Cor 15 telling us in 1Thess 4
“The DEAD in CHRIST will rise FIRST”

2Thess 2 makes it clear that the Coming of Christ anxiously expected by the NT saints "would NOT come until the man of sin was revealed"


2Thess 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,[/b]
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed[/b], the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

So we see THE promise of “The coming” of Christ where we are gathered together to Him. As He said “I will COME again and RECEIVE you to Myself”

We see this same thing in Matt 24 – THE focus of the NT saints – THE event promised by Christ in John 14!!

Matt 24
29 ""But [b]immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and [b]they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDSOF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[/b] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

In 1Cor 15 Paul points us to THE promise of John 14 again with the SAME components regarding THE coming of the Lord and our being raised up to be gathered unto Him.

1Cor 15
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits[/b], after that those who are Christ's at His coming[/b],

 

Matthew shows us how Christ lays out the timeline - perfectly to that singular event that the entire NT church focused on.

The time line according to Matthew 24

John Describes that central focus of the entire NT church in great detail in Rev 19-20 telling us that the "FIRST resurrection is the resurrection of the saints - the dead in Christ - the "Holy and Blessed" over whom the second death has no power.

Paul describes the central focus of the entire NT church in 1Thess 4 - telling the church to "Comfort one another with these words" as all the church is looking for that day when we will be rapture up to heaven - to the place "Christ has prepared for us" when the "DEAD in Christ" will be raised and all will finally be united and WITH Christ for ever. Reigning with Him in that place WHERE He has gone to prepare a place for us. His Father's house!

None of them describe a "Separated group of saints" in heaven while Christ rules a wicked and rebellious earth for 1000 years below.

In this view the First Resurrection John sees (Rev 20) which is at Christ's Rev 19 appearing is the SAME resurrection that Paul describes at Christ's appearing in 1Thess 4. The resurrection of the righteous.

In this view the sequence of Rev 19, 20 and 21 is literal and plain.

No gimmicks!

 

Lets see, how much weight should we give to a book of symbolism over the authority of a "literal" verse described as a "resurrection"? Which one would you suggest holds the most weight? One that can be wrongly "interpreted" by not comprehending the whole text of the subject matter or one that states in perfect comprehendible text exactly what it means? To study the Book of Revelation one should determine if the Book of script is literal or figurative. The very first Chapter 1:1 states that it is "signified". Which is the Greek word for "sign". What is a sign? Something that points to something else; its not literal.

Pick a verse such as Rev 20. Is this a literal or figurative passage of scriptures? So is the "key" mentioned in this passage literal?
How about the "pit" or the "chain"? The immediate context is obviously figurative. So to suggest that the 1000 year reign is to be taken literally is to take it away from the context of the entire passage. We also see from "literal" passages of scriptures that the number 1000 is used figuratively also(2Peter3:8)

So what does Rev20 teach us if we use the "literal" passages of scripture to comprehend the figurative. We need to determine the context of the passage of verses. First we realize there are four great enemies mentioned in the Book of Revelations. 1. the dragon 2. the false prophet 3. the beast 4. the great harlot.

What does the actual text say? An angel comes with a key and a chain. He binds the dragon. He casts him into the pit and seals the door. Why does does the angel do so? To stop the Nations from being deceived....Nations, as translated here is normally translated to mean "Gentiles" from the old language, those who were "martyred" and those who didn't worship the beast reign with the Christ for a 1000 years. This is the "first" resurrection. And making the determination from Romans 6 that the first resurrection is symbolically those that are buried and resurrected to walk a new life under the rule of Christ which now "already" sits on the throne of David "symbolically" according to the words of Peter in (Acts2 30-36)
We can thus conclude that the rest of this symbolic message is as such.

The "Angel" represents the messengers of the gospel as angel also means "MESSENGER". The key and the chain represent the gospel and its power to bind Satan (see acts 26:18)....as Satan can not withstand the truth of the scriptures and is bound by the truth thereof. As the work of the Apostles which was commissioned by the Christ in (John16:13) via the "Spirit of Truth" to guide them into "all" truth, and spread it across the world. Satan is bound by the message of the gospel and Satan can't break nor escape the truth of the Gospel...i.e. "Chains". And so Satan no longer deceives the nations/gentiles as they now have the gospel(as salvation for the first time is offered to the entire world not just the Hebrews....a New Earth is it not? And sitting in Heaven on the throne of David and in control with all authority given him by the Father...Christ now sits in rule of a NEW HEAVEN..no?) For this period of time, it is those who believed, preached and taught and died for the gospel that reign with Christ "in his symbolic" kingdom here on earth...i.e....the chruch. Thus the first resurrection seemingly refers to Christian baptism. After a period of time Satan is released to deceive the nations once again......because people stop believing in the truth of the scriptures....sound familiar? Then comes the "second" resurrection, the one of judgment where we as the faithful Christians remaining join Jesus in the Air....just as Peter and Paul professed. BD