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2 Thessalonians 2:13 and others

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Mar 10, 2011.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Jun 16, 2005
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    The other verses....Matthew 23:13, Matthew 13:1-23, James 2:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-28, 1 Peter 1:3-5, and 1 Peter 2:9-10....Will fellow after we look at this verse.

    A thread just came to the end, before others were able to give their own input. Below was the last post...


    Really? Let me ask you this, did you in any way speculate that God "obtained" information from something or someone?

    Maybe its not. You just quote it a lot as if it is.

    Your "support verses" I plan on going through one my one in time. Just now I'm asking about one.
    2 Thessalonians 2:13

    I'll add that to the list...

    So the HOLY SPIRIT Places us >>>>>INTO CHRIST

    So GOD places us>>>>>>IN CHRIST.

    Eph 2 says this is JUSTIFICATION and sanctification

    1st...Romans 8 does not say this. It is asking who can bring a charge. And that charge has does not have to do with sin, but God atoning power.

    But more to your point...So Eph 1...Elect before the foundation of the world ...means we are saved before we are born???????????

    This means your view is wrong.

    I peter 1:20...
    He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

    Eph 1:4
    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight

    Romans 4 is telling us that the Law cannot save us.

    Set apart...for what reason?

    >>>>>>> Check out Isa 43..

    Set apart to believe.

    And...this is just what your verse says.

    1st "through sanctification of the Spirit" .....Or ........SET APART BY HOLY SPIRIT>>>HIS WORK ALONE.

    What comes next???
    2nd ...and belief of the truth

    Pretty clear....right? :)
    #1 Jarthur001, Mar 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 10, 2011
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Jul 8, 2009
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    Jarthur001, I tried to think of an analogy of how I view election, and though all analogies fail to some degree, I think this is close.
    Do you ever watch golf? I do not play, but my Dad was an avid player, a charter member of the Thousand Oaks course in Ponte Vedra Beach, Fl. that is today the home of the PGA, and the site of the annual TPC or "Player's Championship" with the famous island 17th Hole. When I was a teen this area was swamp and I used to hunt there.
    Anyway, most major golf tournaments usually have one par 3 hole where if any player hits a hole-in-one they receive a new car.
    Now, this is election. Any player who hits a hole-in-one has been chosen to receive a new car BEFORE the tournament begins.
    The means has been provided as well. Every player who makes the cut will get 4 chances to make a hole-in-one on this hole.
    However, only the player(s) who actually make a hole-in-one on this particular hole become those "chosen" or "elect" and get the new car. But they were chosen or elect BEFORE the tournament began.
    Where this analogy fails is that we have no way to know who will make a hole-in-one beforehand, whereas God does know beforehand who will believe.
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Jan 19, 2003
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    2 Thessalonians 2:13 (American Standard Version)
    13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    Paul, the apostles to the Gentiles, is fighting daily with Judaizers who claim that God didn't choose to save Gentiles, or if he did surely he wants them to convert to Judaism first. The Gentile Christians are being persecuted as is Paul continually by the Jewish elites. In that context, it makes perfect since for Paul to write to his predominately Gentile congregations about how he loves them and how God loves them and has "from the beginning" chosen for them to be saved through "belief of the truth."

    This is another passage where Calvinists misunderstand the intent of the author because the historical context is not in view.
  4. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Jan 26, 2010
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    Very nice take on that scripture passage Skandelon.
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Jul 8, 2009
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    Skan, the issue is that Calvinists believe God unconditionally elects or chooses certain persons "in Christ". But when pressed, many Calvinists say this means "to be in Christ". Nobody can be "in Christ" before they were born, or else they would be born saved.
    Non-Cals like myself see it differently, we believe God in his foreknowledge knows those who will believe and therefore be "in Christ" before they actually do and choses or elects these persons.
    That may sound the same, but they are opposites. Calvinism believes a person is chosen as an unbeliever "to be in Christ", where non-Cals believe God elects or chooses only those he knows are "in Christ". Huge difference.

    Thus, my golf analogy, the tournament has already chosen those who hit a hole-in-one will receive a new car. They are chosen BEFORE the tournament begins, BUT ONLY if they fulfill the condition of this choosing or election afterward. And they truly are chosen beforehand, a legal contract is signed before play begins.