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2 Tim. 3:17 (NIV)

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Bluefalcon, Nov 17, 2004.

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  1. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    2 Tim. 3:17 (NIV): "so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

    This is a novel translation of this verse to say the least. Instead of ARTIOS (= perfect, complete) equating what the man of God will be, it apparently is taken to modify EXHRTISMENOS (= equipped, completed, accomplished), i.e., "perfectly equipped" or as the NIV "thoroughly equipped." This translation is certainly possible from the Greek. I suppose there are examples of an adjective modifying a participle 10 words away in Greek, but don't have the resources to do that kind of search. Can anyone here do it. It would also be helpful if an equative verb were part of the equation, as it is in 2 Tim. 3:17.

    Yours,

    Bluefalcon
     
    #1 Bluefalcon, Nov 17, 2004
  2. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Yes, it's a paraphrase, but one that I believe accurately reflects Paul's intent.

    James White exegetes this verse in his debate on sola Scriptura with Roman "Catholic" Patrick Madrid.
     
    #2 Ransom, Nov 17, 2004
  3. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    Not a paraphrase at all, as every Greek word is accounted for in the NIV. My only question was what grammatical reason the NIV translators had to apply ARTIOS (perfect) as an adjective of EXHRTISMENOS (equipped) instead of as the objective predicate of the man of God. Are there any other translations that do this here?

    Yours,

    Bluefalcon
     
    #3 Bluefalcon, Nov 18, 2004
  4. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    My only question was what grammatical reason the NIV translators had to apply ARTIOS (perfect) as an adjective of EXHRTISMENOS (equipped) instead of as the objective predicate of the man of God.

    What is Paul saying makes the man of God perfect or complete? Being equipped with the Scriptures. Since nothing else is required to make him perfect, the Scriptures therefore thoroughly equip him. This is self-evident.
     
    #4 Ransom, Nov 18, 2004
  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member
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    BF: "My only question was what grammatical reason the NIV translators had to apply ARTIOS (perfect) as an adjective of EXHRTISMENOS (equipped) instead of as the objective predicate of the man of God."

    Ransom: "What is Paul saying makes the man of God perfect or complete? Being equipped with the Scriptures. Since nothing else is required to make him perfect, the Scriptures therefore thoroughly equip him. This is self-evident."

    It would help to see the Greek according to its own order and syntax before assuming anything regarding any English rendering. BF is correct in noting the wide separation in the Greek of what appear from the NIV to be two adjectives referencing the same "man of God":

    Literal Greek: "In order that complete should be the of-the-God man towards every work good having been equipped."

    Greek smoothed out in its more "normal" syntactical sense: "In order that the man of God should be complete, having been equipped toward every good work." (MZV - Modern Ziggy Version)

    Given this more "normal" syntactical arrangement, it does seem that the NIV "thoroughly equipped" reflects a different meaning and emphasis.

    N.B. This is not a text-critical issue, since both the Byzantine and Nestle/UBS texts are in agreement here.
     
    #5 Ziggy, Nov 25, 2004
  6. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Greek word order, clause one:
    that
    complete
    may be
    the
    of God
    man

    clause two:
    to/toward
    every
    work
    good
    fully fitted

    It makes little sense to start shifting typical predicate adjectives into other clauses. I don't think the NIV's choice here is best.

    But a dynamic translation can do a lot that a formal equivalence translation does.
     
    #6 Dr. Bob, Nov 25, 2004
  7. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member
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    DBV (Dr Bob Version reworked): "that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted toward every good work."

    MZV (Modern Ziggy Version): "In order that the man of God should be complete, having been equipped toward every good work."

    Even though I am biased and obviously prefer the MZV as somewhat more precise, I am not MZVO, so I am willing to accept the DBV as a faithful translation. [​IMG]
     
    #7 Ziggy, Nov 25, 2004
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