3 Books

Hi Nate,

I used to be a dyed-in-the-wool 5 point Calvinist. Now I call myself a consistent 4-point Calvinist. I agree with the Calvinist position that Christ's atonement effected salvation for whoever Christ died for. I used to believe that was only a certain group of people. Now I believe it was for everyone. Unlike Arminians who call themselves 4-point Calvinists because they believe that Christ died for everyone, while also believing that not all will go to heaven, I believe that Christ died for all people and, thus, all will eventually be saved. There is quite a bit more biblical support for this position than you might imagine, so I will give you a few links supporting it, and also contrasting it with the Calvinist and Arminian positions.

This article is probably the best one. It's a bit long, but well worth the read:

The Outcome of Infinite Grace

Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections

Will God Save All or Only Some?

Will All Who Die In Adam Be Made Alive In Christ?

Those are just four articles you can read to familiarize yourself with Orthodox Christian Universalism. Here are couple of websites that have more resources to further your research:

True Grace Ministries

Exposing Those Who Contradict

Sorry, that's a bit more than three. It's hard to limit yourself sometimes.

 

Brother Ray,


BROTHER RAY SAID: Brother Joe,

You gentlemen have not factored into His plan, the requirement of believing and or trusting in Jesus Christ in what He accomplished at the Cross. Our Lord will only save those who believe in Him. This is clear as crystal in John 3:18.

Jesus is a perfect Savior to those who truly believe in His work


MY RESPONSE (BROTHER JOE): To say Christ paid for your sins 2000 years ago only WHEN you come to believe it is built behind is false because it is saying perception determines reality. It is similar to saying Abraham Lincoln was shot over 100 years ago ONLY IF YOU BELIEVE IT. If Christ paid for ones sins they are paid for-this would be a historical fact. One cannnot negate history by refusing to believe it.

Now Brother Ray, did Christ in fact 2000 years ago pay for the sins of every single human being? And after you answer that, answer me this, do you believe perception determines reality? If not, than how can you believe Christ paid for everyones sins but it doesnt do anyone any good unless they believe it? How can a person be go to Hell if Christ paid for there sins.

Also, a point of clarification , the gospel of John doesnt say we believe to GET saved, it says those who are saved will believe. Big difference in meanings- If saved than you will believe, NOT to GET saved believe.

Brother Joe

 

Tumbleweed,

You said, 'Astoundingly, it was from among this mass of condemned and hateful
men that God determined to redeem a remnant unto Himself.'

Ray: The word astoundingly is a poorly thought out word to be used in this sentence. It is irreconcilable with the New or Old Testament to spawn this false idea on human intelligence. The Scripture never once hints about damning the majority and saving only His selected few. As the saying goes, 'Don't kid yourself!'

It is unthinkable and, moreover, irrational to think that this Divine God of love, mercy and justice could contemplate, autocratically picking out only certain sinners for so marvelous a plan that He placed in action. [John 3:16]

 

CalvinistDude,

If I am reading your post correctly you believe in Universalism.

This is another example of how the seed-bed of Calvinism has a proclivity toward spreading more theological error.

What would be the purpose of John writing the truth coming from Christ about two distinct classes of human beings in chapter 3:18?

 

You said, 'MY RESPONSE (BROTHER JOE): To say Christ paid for your sins 2000 years
ago only WHEN you come to believe it is built behind is false because it is
saying perception determines reality. It is similar to saying Abraham Lincoln
was shot over 100 years ago ONLY IF YOU BELIEVE IT. If Christ paid for
ones sins they are paid for-this would be a historical fact. One cannnot
negate history by refusing to believe it.

Now Brother Ray, did Christ in fact 2000 years ago pay for the sins of every
single human being? And after you answer that, answer me this, do you
believe perception determines reality? If not, than how can you believe Christ
paid for everyones sins but it doesnt do anyone any good unless they
believe it? How can a person be go to Hell if Christ paid for there sins.

Ray: If you have three grandchildren and you bought three candy-sticks for them, it is possible that one of them might not like the flavor, lime. So what do you do? You give the two grandchildren their appointed portion which was one candy-stick. The one child walks away from the offer, but you made provision for all three of your much loved grandchildren. I don't think I have to now explain God's provision for all sinners. [I John 2:2]

You said, 'Also, a point of clarification , the gospel of John doesnt say we believe to
GET saved, it says those who are saved will believe. Big difference in
meanings- If saved than you will believe, NOT to GET saved believe.'

Ray: This is not the idea that John sets forth in John 3:16-18. The provision has been accomplished on the Cross of Calvary; now God calls sinners to believe in Him.

Regards,
Brother Ray
Regards,
Brother Ray

 

I agree. Which makes statements like this one all the more ironic:

The Arminian view is one where God wants desperately to save everyone who ever lived, lives, and will live -- but isn't willing or powerful enough to pull it off.

Rather than do what's necessary to turn the heart of every living soul, he stands at a distance and "woos" and then leaves the decision in the hands of men whose nature is so prideful and corrupt, they're even too stubborn to ask for directions when they're lost in a car, let alone lost to God.

If, as Ray says, His plan was perfect, you'd think He'd do a lot better job of saving all the people Arminians claim He desperately wants to save.

I can only conclude that either the Arminian god doesn't really care enough about the eternal fate of ALL men to do an adequate job of saving them, or that he's just an idiot.

 

npetreley,

The One who created the world and universe is not an idiot. The Holy Spirit attends the Word and witness to the Gospel. Not all people in the world have heard. We are to go and preach.
I do not fully know why more are not drawn to Christ, but His promise is to all sinners. [I Tim. 2:5-6 & I John 2:2] His atonement was for all sinners; those who believe and trust in Him will definitely be saved at the Rapture.

 

Since this thread is supposed to be links and book recommendations, and since I have replied to some of what you stated in the arminianism, calvinism, and universalism forum, I will just reply by redirecting you to my posts in that thread.

 

I know this is going over what Nick has already said, but I really would like to know how you can rationalize this in your head, Ray: If the One we worship really is Almighty God who gave His Son for all sinners because His heart desire is to see all sinners saved, how is it that He allows a scheme of things where millions never even get the opportunity to hear and believe (Rom.10:14, etc)?

Now, bear in mind that this has nothing to do with any man's freewill - Millions never even get the OPPORTUNITY to "accept Christ" as you would put it.

So what are we to say? Is it that millions of souls are now in Hades only because lazy evangelicals did not make a great enough missionary effort? Is not the Arminian then forced to admit that these people are in Hell primarily because of the sin of another (IE: the tardy Church)?

I am totally committed to evangelism, and our church spends a very large percentage of the Lord's resources here on missions support, so this is not an attempt to undermine the great commission. I am just interested to know how in the world you can live with such a collection of contradictory data.

- Paul

 

Thank you for voicing that question, Tumbleweed.
And may I ask, if to be saved is to hear and understand the preached word, how about unborn babies who die ? Oh, the Arminians will say, balderdash, that's a strawman argument, or whatever it is, they will say, God will provide for their salvation.

But, it's still a valid question. Let me ask the very question that Paul asked:

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So, I guess Berrian and each Arminian missionary will just have to go into each pregnant mother's womb and preach to that fetus there.

The question now is, in proportion to every child being conceived and on the way to being born, how many preachers are there ?

Another question is, what about those babies who will die before reaching school age when they can at least understand someting being said ?

What is the ratio and possibility of each Arminian preacher reaching these souls and proclaiming their need to receive Christ as Savior ?

And we're talking the entire world here, including the very depths of the Amazon jungle, all the virgin forests and jungles, every square mile of this huge earth.

 

The statement was made: 'Oh, the Arminians will say, balderdash, that's a strawman argument, or whatever it is, they will say, God will provide for their salvation.'

Ray: 'Scripture teaches that the unborn and children go to Heaven at there departure from this life as explicitly stated in II Samuel 12:23-24. It's a fact tht 'God will provide for their salvation.'

Ray: 'Why should Christians be prolife in trying to save the bodies of the innocent, unborn, when Calvinists teach that the Lord damns non-elect babies and children?'

Just swallow; you need a more balanced view which is neither Calvinistic or Arminian in theology.

Dr. Berrian

 

Berrian said:

Unfortunately that still doesn't satisfy the question (or is because you have no convincing answer).

How will God bring those unborn, babies, and innocent children to heaven, if according to your demand, everyone must hear the gospel, pray the sinner's prayer, and accept Christ as personal Savior in order to be a Christian. How will God provide ? Or is there one way for the unborn, the babies, and innocent children, and another for those who are not unborn, babies, or innocent children.

 

'II Samuel 12:23-24. Be not faithless, but believing.

 

I got no problem with my faith, Ray Berrian. After all, the One whose faith justifies mine is Christ Himself. Therefore, I know that in times when I am faithless, He remains faithful.

Now, on the other hand, you are the one in a quandary here.

Everytime you and your kind are asked about those who are unable to hear the preacher's words you have no answer that will jive with your teaching.

That is your answer ?

Heck, that can be my answer to you as well if you ask me how God who is a God of mercy can bypass others and choose some.

Yup. I think you are starting to get senile.

 

Ray -
I really would like to hear your response to my earlier post -
1) If God provided redemption for every sinner, and desires that every sinner be saved, why do you think He allows a situation where millions never hear and have the opportunity to exercize their freewill according to the Arminian scheme?

2) Are those souls therefore in Hell primarily because of the Church's laziness in not sending missionaries in time?

- Paul

 

Unfortunately, Tumbleweed, all he, Skandelon, Diane Tevagia, and all the other 'goodness-gracious-why-your-God-is-a-monster-and-you-Calvinists are all monsters-and-you are unsaved-it-seems-to-me' Arminians here can and will come up with is the testimony of nature, or God will provide for the salvation of these people, or simply believe and do not doubt, and then they will continue to insist that God is a God of mercy while limiting the reach of His salvation only to those within hearing distance of the ever faithful, totally obedient and submitted Arminian preachers.

 

And the 4-5 point Calvinist looking over the ramparts of heaven and seeing his precious daughter suffering the flames of hell will rush to his Lord and say "Oh my God and Savior Jesus Christ - couldn't you have done something for my precious loved one???"

To which the answer will come back that Calvinism so longs to hear -- "Why sure I Could have! IF I had CARED to"

Then he realizes that the mercy and grace of God are unfair -- that he is lucky to have been arbitrarily selected, that he should not be focused on the suffering of his loved one -- but rather on his OWN good fortune! "After all --- it is all about me" he says to himself.

=====================================

Oh how hard it is to maintain the Calvinist line once you remove the luxury of having no concern for the one suffering in hell.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Oh please!!! Not THAT argument again!

It works both ways, you know.

And the Arminian/Pelagian looks down and sees his precious daughter suffering in the flames of hell and rushes to his Lord and savior and says to God, "Oh my God and Savior Jesus Christ - couldn't you have done something for my precious loved one?!?!"

To which the Arminian/Pelagian God answers, "Sure I could if I had CARED to. I'm God, after all. Do you think I'm powerless in this matter? I could easily have changed her heart so that she would see the truth, love me and be saved. Nevertheless, as you preached all your life, it's not MY desire that matters, but Her will be done. Far be it from me -- the creator of all things and to whom all things belong -- to interfere with her free will corrupted by the sinful nature. So I figure she can suffer for eternity for all I care, because that's the choice she made."

Or to put it another way, given the choice between wanting God to let my daughter have her way according to her own "free will" versus wanting God to override her rebellious will and change her heart and be saved, I'll take the latter, thank you very much.

 

Two items here, Bob:
1) What in the world does this dead-cat story have to do with rightly dividing the word of truth?

2) The foolish assertion that people who hold to sovereign grace have no concern for Hell-bound sinners is a spiritual libel of which you ought to be ashamed.

- Paul