3 Plain Statements On The Rapture

I have argued extensively elsewhere that what seems "plain" in 1 Thess 4 - the snatching up of saints into heaven - is actually a complex metaphor, never intended to be taken at face value. I will not repeat such arguments in the present post.

While I do generally have some sympathy with the position that texts should be taken at face value, I do not think that the above principle is really universal. Assuming that the reader believes in justification by faith alone, how would the application of the stated principle fare in respect to these words of Paul:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

No less than three times does Paul espouse "justification by good works". Do you not see how the stated principle creates a problem here?

I do not wish to divert the thread from the topic of the rapture, I just do not think that "plain statements" mean what they say. In the case of 1 Thess 4, I lean towards believing there will no rapture of any kind.

 

Here are Paul's own words again:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Paul could not be more clear. There will be a judgement at the end at which all people will be judged. And, as verses 6,7,10, and 13 clearly state: eternal life is at stake in this judgement and the basis for the granting of eternal life is "good works". That is what this text plainly states.

I do not disagree with your argument that a person who meets the Romans 2 standard is "already saved". But in a sense you are supporting my point in relation to the rapture issue: If we take Romans 2 as an isolated text, we will think that Paul is teaching "justification by the good works of moral self-effort". We agree that this is not the whole story. As you correctly point out, we need to look at other scriptures in order to properly interpret Romans 2.

In the same spirit, we need to look at the entire range of the Scriptures to make sense of the 1 Thess 4 statement about the "rapture". And I think that Paul is constructing a metaphor here and never intended us to see the church as being snatched away from the world.

 

Plainly this verse says it plainly happened to the generation Jesus was speaking to. Your wrong anti-aging. The Bible corrected you.

 

I think that the fig tree incident is a reference to the events of 70 AD and so have indeed already happened.

 

Bible does not say "that" generation. It says "this" generation.
The Bible corrected you again.

 

antiaging:
"Well you argued wrong about 1 thes. 4. It is the believers that go to heaven. You don't correct the bible; it corrects you."

GE:
Well well well! Hear who's talking! You shown me this, in 1Ths4! Come on: Where is it? You are telling the Bible what your bible says.

The posts I have read in this thread FIRST claim for fact a 'rapture', then uses their claim for proof of their claim. Readers are not stupid; and it makes me so cross and fed-up with such 'argument' I feel like just turning off the internet. But I care because it is the Word of God so manhandled.

In how many threads now have I shown the Scriptures do not know of any 'rapture' or anyone at the last trumpet going to heaven. Do not be absurd. It is worse than absurd; it is proclaiming falsities for God's Word, which is blasphemy.

1Thess4 have the word "seized", all 'seized' from death's claws, both the raised and the 'remaining'. Everyone of the saved are either raised from the MANY and dusty earthly graves and the living saved from the hords and hosts of the pursuing devil and his armies. God shall "seize" them from perdition through clouds of the turmoil of the last day.

I laugh at the pretty neat pictures of gentlemen cravatted swallow-tailed and women and children dressed for birthday partying, arms outstretched as theu float on clouds through the air like these movies the teenagers damage their eyesight on so. THAT won't be the Last Day at the Last Trumpet!

 

GE:

In fact! 'This' was Jesus' generation, no doubt. They witnessed Him the Risen, and He, is the Personification of the Kingdom of God and of heaven. He through resurrection from the dead established The Kingdom in its ultimate glory -- not long after still to happen. It's historic, DIVINE fact and truth and reality for everyone who believe on Christ, Saviour, being Priest, Prophet and Potentate of the everlasting New Creation of God Creator almighty.

Wake up to its call! All citizens draw nigh! The King is coming! Meet your God!

 

antiaging:
"there are over 200 fake bibles on the market with the words changed."

GE:

and one of the most infamous of these 'changes', is the word 'rapture' smuggled in into 1Thess4!!

 

// ... The last trumpet (of 1 Cor 15:52) is the 7th trumpet in revelation ... //

Your assumption, NOT what the Bible says.

Did the Age of Yisrael (the Nation, including Judah & the Inner-Biblical Period) end at the Birth of Christ or at the Resurrection of Christ.

Will the Age of the Gentile Church end at the pre-tribulation resurrection or the post-tribulation resurrection?

I believe there is a time between Ages: The Inner-Age-Pause (IAP, the term 'Ralph' is already used).

The Inner-Age-Pause between the Age of Yisrael and the Age of the Gentile Church was 33 years: from the Birth of Messiah Jesus until the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Messiah Jesus.

The Inner-Age-Pause between the Age of the Gentile Church and the Millennial Messianic Kingdom is the 7-year-long, 7-week-long, Tribulation Judgment DAY.

// The one in 2 Thessalonian is not referring to the rapture at all. It is referring to the falling away from the faith (apostacy) that is supposed to happen before antichrist is revealed.--Taken out of the way, in the apostacy. [That apostacy has already happened with the ecumenical movement pulling church leaderships under the control of the vatican, and the true gospel not being preached and fake bibles that have the words changed being widely accepted.] //

IMHO the 'falling away" (KJV), 'departure' (9 English Bibles prior to the KJV) is NOT an apostacy, but the falling away from earth of the saints in the pretribulation resurrection/rapture; the departure from the earth into the arms of Jesus.

// Show me a plain statement saying the rapture is pre tribulation. You cannot because there isn't any. The pre trib rapture is based only on bad interpretations of harder to understand scriptures and someone's ideas about this or that. There are no plain statements saying it. //

Recommend you find the PLAIN STATEMENTs that say the rapture is post-tribulation ONLY.

Here are the terms I like to use (to make things plain):

resurrection1 - the restoring life to the dead by Messiah Jesus and adding an eternal body
rapture1 - the adding an eternal body for living persons by Messiah Jesus
rapture2 - a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1 before the Tribulation Judgement Period
resurrection2 - a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1 after the Tribulation Judgement Period

People tend to misread their Bibles (especially the KJVs by confusing pars of ideas:

-- resurrection1 and resurrection2 above
-- rapture1 and rapture2 above
-- the two Churches (that in the scope of eternity are one Church): the largely Gentile Church of the Church Age and the Jewish/Israeli Church
-- the two elect (that in the scope of eternity are one elect): the the largely Gentile elect of the Church Age and the Jewish/Israeli elect
-- the two sets of saints (that in the scope of eternity are one set): the largely Gentile saints of the Church Age and the Jewish/Israeli saints

Some people get confused about things when they forget parts of the Bible. Some believers in the pre-tribualation rapture may happen soon, if a person were alive when the Lord Comes to get the Church Age Elect Saints, that they would NEVER DIE THE FIRST DEATH. How fortunate they would be. But that is NOT why the Lord is going to rapture1/resurrect1 before the Tribulation Judgment Period. The Lord is going to have the rapture2 before the Tribulation Judgment Period because that his the Lord's plan from before The World was Cast down.

BTW, some people also get confused of the pictures of the Rapture2: the 'falling away' (KJV) of the saints and the 'caught up' (KJV, but 'raptos' in the Latin Vulgate) of the saints. Both are word pictures of the rapture2. Will the dead rise out of the graves or or fall out of the graves? Depends upon the orientation of the head of Jesus when it happens. If Jesus comes so the Earth is 'above' His head, then the dead will fall out of the graves and into the arms of Jesus; If Jesus comes so the Earth is 'below' His head, then the dead will rise out of the graves and into the arms of Jesus. WHY MISS THE GOOD NEWS here folks? The Dead will be resurrected1 by Jesus. Who cares about the orientation of the Lord?

//The idea that the church is a restraining force against the antichrist also contradicts a plain statement that the antichrist will scatter the power of the church before Jesus comes back. So, that is a false idea.//

This comment makes no sense. The largely gentile church of the church age will be raptured2; the Jewish/Isareli church will be left to be formed then to go into the Millennial Messianic Kingdom.

BTW, I've was a pretribulation raptur2-ist for 52 years before I saw Matthew 24 as a totally pre-tribulation rapture2 proof text.

BTW, no way that "PLAIN = TRUE". 'Plain' is grace added by the Holy Spirit, usually to they who pray & fast frequently.

 

There are, in fact, over 200 English Bibles containing the inerrant, perfect, preserved-for-different-generations WORD OF GOD.

1 Thess 4:17 (The Latin Vulgate, AD485):
deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

'simul' - together
'rapiemur' - (proper form of raptos) - caught up

Yep, 'rapture' was the Word of God in AD 485

Here was the Word of God in AD 1599:

1 Thess 4:17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Then shall we which liue and remaine, be caught vp with them also in the clouds, to meete the Lord in the ayre: and so shall we euer be with the Lord.

1 Thess 4:17 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will always be with the Lord.[/FONT]

Woe be unto those who despise the Word of God

 

GE

Dear Ed Edwards,
Your 'scheme' is for spiritual Einsteins, not for the poor in brain matter ouks like me. I shall never be able to understand what you say, how be convinced of what you say? Man, you scare me.

 

EE:
"'simul' - together
'rapiemur' - (proper form of raptos) - caught up

Yep, 'rapture' was the Word of God in AD 485

Here was the Word of God in AD 1599:

1 Thess 4:17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Then shall we which liue and remaine, be caught vp with them also in the clouds, to meete the Lord in the ayre: and so shall we euer be with the Lord.

1 Thess 4:17 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will always be with the Lord."[/FONT]

GE:

The Vulgate tells you, it is the Bible in the vulgar tongue: It is not the Word of God or even the original representation of God's Word. It is a 'translation' of it -- of the Greek.
And very definitely is the meaning of the Vulgate millions of miles away from your 'version' in the English but rapturists' idiom. You are putting your reputation at stake, dear Ed.

And the two other translations are even further from your 'interpretation. I catch up with a party I have undertaken a stroll with; I catch up with my studies that were negelected.

And the catching up is done with my feet on the ground, not dangling in the air.

It is not said here 'we' for a moment leave the earth or are "in the air". It is said of "the Lord", that, He is in the air, and that we - all resurrected and 'changed' - are seized together in clouds to meet the Lord who is coming in the air to the earth to exercise judgment and make New Beginning. We the seized together, make out (constitute) the "clouds", like many water droplets of water constitute rain-clouds. The resurrected and changed saved are the clouds. In clouds of themselves they are with the almighty power of God "gathered in" like the grain in the harvest are "gathered in".

I shall hold to the simple and true; you will never convince me with all this inexplicvable too high to come by 'rapturous' salvation of yours.

 

A 'simple' manual bicycle is made using ideas from 72 countries and materials from about 83 contries. There are whole books on the history and engineering of such a device. But it is rather 'simple' to operate.

The Modle T that Ford made was much simpler in construction. It could be fixed with four simple tools that were sold with it. It was very complex to drive. (For example, the inner-tube tire had to be changed every 400 miles. Today the tubless tires last half the life of the engine.) Anyway, the automobile keeps getting more complex to engineer and build but much more 'simple' to operate.

The simple truth is: God has a plan for our future. God told different parts of the plan to different people and we have all the clues in our Old Testament and New Testament. HOWEVER, the people who God told about the Tribulation Period Judgement did NOT know that after 1963, Mankind would be able to do every bad thing that is described in Revelation.

Prior to 1968 (when I found out about the 1963 date) I though that the Tribulation Period Judgement was what God was going to do to punish the ungodly and to save the Jewish/Israeli elect saints. But after 1968 I realized that God needs to take charge of the World to keep human-kind from destroying themselves. The Tribulation Period Judgement is God's plan to:
save the Jewish/Israeli elect saints to be and bring general Judgement upon the earth and save mankind from themselves.

Part of that plan is to take the Church Age (this current evil age) mostly Gentile elect saints out of the World prior to the Tribulation Period Judgement.

Oh, one can put part of the plan together from the Bible without using all the pieces, but the non-fitting peaces are obvious to see.

OBTW (Oh, by the way), it is rather tacky to take a person's clarification and say it adds to the complexity

 

Yes, I told you and you should by now know me for not the brightest star in intelligence.

Your setting dates, puts the lid on the pot for me. I see RED when I see time settings. That finally proves yours is a falsity. I won't argue with you one further post. May God bring you back to earth!

 

Sorry, 'apostacy' means 'falling away from the faith' it means you have to have the faith then fall away from the faith. The Catholics, especially the leaders, never had the faith. They cannot change in to apostacy. So your whole argument falls apart cause you don't use the right definition of 'apostacy'.

---------------------------------------------------
The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
to the end."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words[/u.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

I've underlined a command to comfort each
other with these things. I personally don't see how
we can comfort each other with 'Jesus is going to
come get us at the end of the Tribulation period'.
So I use 'Jesus is going to come get us at the end of
the age which is before the Tribulation Period starts.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

I underlined "our gathering together to Him,
we ask you" in verse 1 and
the falling away comes first.
The second is the only mention of the first
in the rest of the chapter.

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invasion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Millennial Kingdom period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.
-----------------------------------------

It does seem strange to me, the logical flaw: Argument from Ignorance. That says that anybody who knows some stuff about a discussion is making the discussion to complex for others. So the silmple argument (point) has to be right. Sorry, I was saved in April 1952 (it was an election year, you know when Eisenhour got elected) by a traveling pre-tribulation Evangelist. I didn't want to get killed in a war and go to hell, I'd rather get raptured when the Lord comes to get His people & be one of them. I have studied some pretribulation, pre-millinnial, futurist thought (most from the Bible but lots in places like THINKING ABOUT THE UNTHINKABLE - my subtitle: how humans can purge all life from the face of the Earth and etc. nasty stuff).

I'm the one with a 3-hour University graduate class in Fall-out Shelter Management. Know why one would never have to be in a fall-out shelter for more than 2 weeks? Cause if the fall-out is large enough to keep on the shelter for over 2-weeks, you would have shorter than 2-weeks FATAL dose.

No, we live in a dangerous world where there are multiple ways to kill all humans on earth. There were in 1990 about 20 times as many H-bombs as it takes to destroy all human live on earth. The various much noted disarmament or nuclear reductions between the US & Russia has reduces that to there is only three times as many bombs as it takes to destroy all life on earth. Yep, the Earth needs a savior.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

Note that if the 'falling away' isn't talking about "our gathering together to Him" what is "our gathering together to Him" talking about? There are two distinct things Paul says he is talking about in 2 Thess 2:1:

1. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2..our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,

Even those who contend that both these things happen in the same 8-hour workshift must admit, two different sets of events. Some say they happen in a 'twinkling of an eye' - not that is when each individual's body is changed, not that all bodies will be changed at the same 'twinking of an eye'. That all together AT ONCE theory complicates matters a lot. The simple truth is: We will be either resurrected1 or raptured1 together then each changed in a twinkling of an eye.

Did anybody note that my resurrection1 and rapture1 are both taught by the post-tribualtion ONLY folk? My pre-tribualtion 'theory' includes a set of events that take place in one 48-hour day called the "Second Coming of Messiah Yeshua" or Resurrection2 = a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1 after the Tribulation Judgement period.

BTW, my My pre-tribualtion 'theory' that is so 'complicated' includes a rapture2 and resurrection2 events the same day where day = Daniel's 70th Week, the 7-year period (of 2 each 3.5 years long).