1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

3 Point Calvinists?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by drfuss, Oct 2, 2007.

  1. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Ratings:
    +0
    In the Other Christains Denominations section, It was stated that there are 3 Point Calvinists that believe in total depravity, unconditional election and perseverance of the saints, but not in limited atonement and irresistible grace. One thread requested if there were any such 3 Point Calvinists and no one responded.

    So I am asking in this section if there are any such 3 Point Calvinists on here; and if so, please enlighten me on this belief.

    I don't understand how anyone could believe in unconditional election and not in irresistible grace without changing the classic definitions of one of these beliefs.

    Am I missing something?
     
  2. Allan

    Allan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Ratings:
    +0
    There is no such thing.

    A Calvinist holds to all the BASIC 5 pillars which constitutes the premise of the entire systematic theology. To deny one or two causes a break down of how the other points operate in conjunction with each other.

    Example: to claim you hold to the Calvinistic doctrine of Election but not irresistable grace makes a hodge-podge of your theologly. You loose systematic creditability to say God decrees you will be His but that He will not ensure you TO BE His by His own power due to His election/predestination.

    Each point is sustained by the others.

    NOTE: It can be argued however that a 4 pointer can still be considered Calvinistic since the Calvinistic view of Limited Atonement only re-enforces the other tenents but the others are not bound to it as they are to the other 4. I personally have no problem with a 4 pointer per-sey but I can tell you there are many Calvinists (purebloods I call them) who will not have it so named amoung them :)

    But a 3 pointer is not Calvinist any more than they are a 2 point Arminian.

    Remember they are systems of beliefs. So to begin taking off the parts we don't like is much akin removing important parts of your cars engine. You might have the appearance of that particualar car, but it sure wont run like it should if it will run at all when put to the test.
     
  3. Allan

    Allan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Ratings:
    +0
    You could say I hold 2 and half points of the Calvinistic belief acrostic (TULIP) but you could not call me a Calvinist.

    Typically I'm refered to as the most Calvinistic Non-Calvinist on here :laugh: But still no Calvinist.
     
  4. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,439
    Ratings:
    +1
    Maybe we can't be categorized as any point Calvinist or Arminian. We believe what we are convinced the Bible teaches, just like Calvinists are convinced that they believe what the Bible teaches.
     
  5. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Ratings:
    +0
    There still is hope.
    :)
     
  6. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Ratings:
    +0
    drfuss: What 2 and half points do your hold?
     
  7. Allan

    Allan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Ratings:
    +0
    Total Depravity - 1 point
    Preservence of the Saints - 1 point
    ...(not perseverence, though it is symantics)
    Election being God's sole perogitive as to why and how He chooses to do it. - 1/2 point.
     
  8. tjfkbrawny

    tjfkbrawny New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2007
    Messages:
    182
    Ratings:
    +0
    From my understanding of Calvinism, which is limited, that would make the person not a Calvanist at all.
     
  9. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Ratings:
    +0
    I agree. No one has ever adequately explained to me why someone wants to be called a Calvinist when they are not. Perhaps it is a lack of understanding of what a Calvinist is by those who are OSAS Christians.
     
  10. Allan

    Allan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Ratings:
    +0
    OSAS encompass Calvinism but it is held by many more than just Calvinists.
    Once saved Always saved is properly said but poorly portrayed.

    I think a better portrayal of it's meaning is Once Saved Always changed.
     
  11. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,879
    Ratings:
    +0
    I hold to those three points and not the other and I am not a "calvinist" as such terms are ungodly according to 1 Cor 1
     
  12. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Ratings:
    +0
    How do you feel about calling yourself a Baptist?
     
  13. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,879
    Ratings:
    +0

    fine. And it isnt the same thing.
     
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Ratings:
    +0
    I agree. Baptists are all autonomous with different beliefs. Calvinists must adhere to TULIP to be considered such.

    The fact one can be a calvinist, one an arminian, and one none of the above...while remaining baptists goes to show this.
     
    #14 webdog, Oct 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2007
  15. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Ratings:
    +0
    Some say they are Freewill Baptist, which means you agree with The International Fellowship Of Free Will Baptist. Belonging to a Free Will Baptist Church does not make you a Southern Baptist. They will call you a Free Will Baptist and not Southern Baptist, for you chose to join a Free Will Baptist Church and not the Southern Baptist.

    Some say they are Southern Baptist, and in order to join a SBC church you will agree with doctrines set forth in the local church constitution. At this point you are labeled a Southern Baptist, and not a Free Will Baptist. You are identifying yourself as a Southern Baptist and not a Free Will Baptist. Like wise, joining a Southern Baptist Church does not make you a RCC member. You have not labeled yourself as a RCC, for you belong to a SBC church.

    Which are you? Or do you chose BELONG to yet another label of Baptist?
     
  16. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Ratings:
    +0
     
    #16 Jarthur001, Oct 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2007
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Ratings:
    +0
    The priesthood of the believer.
    I don't think so. TCGreek agrees with me in the other Christian denom forum in the same "3 point calvinist" thread there is no such thing as a three point calvinist. All 5 points make the systematic theology what it is. Saying you are a 3 or 4 point calvinist is like saying I'm a 4 legged human being with 2 legs.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1102072&postcount=2

    I would be interested in seeing my supposed thread "does faith come first or the new birth". I don't recall starting that one, but I may be wrong.
    The species is typing this response...trust me, I exist :)
    We are affiliated with the SBC, yes.
     
    #17 webdog, Oct 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2007
  18. drfuss

    drfuss New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Ratings:
    +0
    drfuss: I agree you are not a Calvinist. Perhaps you can explain to me how you can believe in unconditional election and not in irresistible grace. In the Calvinist model, God unconditionally decides who will be elected with the Christian having no part in the decision (He may think he decided, but he was not involved in the decision to be elected). If you don't believe in irresistible grace, then grace is resistible; and the Christian was involved in the decision to accept Christ which conflicts with unconditional election.

    Is your definitions of unconditional election and irresistible grace the same as the 5 Point Calvinists?

    Again, am I missing something?
     
  19. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Ratings:
    +0
    ok...and?

    I kinda agree with this myself, but that is MY felling and I maybe not as dogmatic as TCG. The key word on my point was FORCE. No one is FORCED to believe all 5 points, and if one claims to be a 4 pointer, am I to play God and say he must have all 5 or none? Why cannot we let others believe as they want?

    I'm not sure you have started a thread headed in that name. But no one said you had. I said you have bated Calvinist between each other on subjects you feel they do not agree. This alone shows we are not forced to believe.

    You call that a...........well....never mind. :)

    Then this means you are not Free will Baptist or Missionary Baptist. Why take sides? :)
     
    #19 Jarthur001, Oct 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2007
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Ratings:
    +0
    An answer to your question...
    You can believe in as many points as you wish. If you don't hold to all 5, you are not a calvinist...you are confused.
    I believe you have..."You in the past have tried on your own to bate Calvinist between Calvinist for things like ..."where does sin come from"...."does faith come 1st or the new birth" as well as other. Please tell me you agree with this. If not I will take the time and show the threads to all."
    I happen to attend a church associated with the SBC. That's hardly "taking sides".
     
Loading...