490 YEARS DONE!!!!!

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It does NOT say 483 "UNTIL Messiah the Prince is crucified" as you "needed" it to say.
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Hard - because you HAVE NOTHING in the timline AFTER the 69th week in the life of Christ -- you place it all OUTSIDE the 490 year timeline of Daniel.

Hard - because you have once again "ignored" the Messianic event that is NOT AFTER the 69th week -- Remember? Yet?

This is the part that is NOTABLE by the fact that it is NOT AFTER the 7+62 rather it is IN that 7+62 part of the 490 year timeline!

How much more obvious can this be?

Wrong - once you place the event AFTER the 69th week you can not put it BEFORE the 70th week. AT BEST you could put it AFTER 70 -- but it is exceedingly obvious that AFTER 69 comes 70.

You argue that AFTER 69 and BEFORE 70 comes "something else" and so you omit the Messiah's work from the 490 year Messianic timeline ENTIRELY!!

How sad that you would do this just to get to a "story" about the antichrist an unspecified time in the future!

In Christ,

Bob

 

I have to admit that in the discussion I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you left "at least part" of Christ's work IN Daniels 490 year timeline. But in your recent posts you are making it clear that you do not have ANY of Christ's work, ministry, the Cross -- none of it is left in the 490 year timeline as you redefine it.

You are very clear that the ONLY part of Christs work that you see in Daniel 9 is the cross AND THAT happens only AFTER the 69th week which you say is alSO NOT in the 70th week.

So it is NOT in the 69th week (we both agree on that point) and you claim it is ALSO NOT in the 70th week!

Astonishing! Your reduction of the great 490 year Messianic timeline leaves NOTHING of the Messiah IN the timeline!!!

How in the world could this have slipped passed you?

I am truly amazed!

IN Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

You are just not reading carefully. You are doing both to Scripture and to my words. I hope you will do some study on this. It is quite evident that you have done very little if any.

You say that this is a 490 year Messianic timeline and I keep telling you that is incorrect. But you won't read the text long enough to figure that out. The text is about Daniel's people the Jews. The death of the Messiah is in there, in teh 490 year timeline (contrary to your statement; it shows you don't read very closely). It is after th 69 weeks, and before hte 70th. You can read the text and see it right there. It is inconceivable that you miss it time and time again. But it seems you are more loyal to a preconceived position than you are to Scripture.

Do this for us: Use the text itself and construct an order of events. You can use only the text.

Tam,

Why is it there? The prophecy tells us why it is there (more evidence that some are not reading closely). It is there to tell us what will happen to Daniel's people, the Jews. That has nothing to do with my opinion. That is what God said about it in the text.

 

Here is a prime illustration of just how out of touch with the text you really are. Here is what the text actually says (you conveniently stopped halfway through):

Daniel 9:25-26 25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing,

Now, notice very clearly how the death of the Messiah is not in the 69 weeks. It is after the 69 weeks. The 69weeks "until the Messiah" is ambiguous. Until what about the Messiah? It clearly doesn't say. You want to insert baptism, confirming the covenant, or who knows what by now. But that is adding to the text.

On the basis of the text, at the close of the 69 weeks, we should expect to see the Messiah. 69 weeks until means that he won't be there until 69 weeks have passed. And the clear unambiguous statement of the text is that his death is "after th 69 weeks" meaning "not in." And the text clearly indicates that the 70th week starts after that.

Bob, you just aren't handing the text carefully.

 

But you didn't come to the right answer. Think about what you just said. You believe something that you cannot support from the text. IN fact, I have shown you numerous time that the text does not say what you say. But you keep ignoring that.

Why don't you take the challenge I just gave to Bob: Use the text itself and construct an order of events. You can use only the text.

When you construct an order of events using only the text, you will very quickly see how your position doesn't work.

I do not live in a fantasy world, unless you consider the promises of God to be fantasy. The text says what it says. I have routinely tried to get you to deal with that, but even in your previous post, you asked a question that you didn't know the answer to (apparently) and the answer was clearly stated in the text. And now, rather than dealing with the problems in your position, you simply accuse me of living in a fantasy world. That seems strange to me.

 

The answer you had did not fit the text of Scripture, as I have clearly shown. All I have done is take what the text says and explain it. You have taken the text, ignored part of it, changed the order of part of it, changed the meaning of part of it, and misidentified the people in it. Why? What has led you to such a tactic? Why are you willing to accept answers that don't fit the text?

And where is that order of events? I want to see you take the text itself and show us the order of events communicated in it.

 

Clearly, obviously, notably vs 25 points us to an event that takes place in the first 69 weeks - which is the appearance of the Messiah. IN the 69 week period we have 483 years UNTIL the Messiah.

What it does NOT say is "UNTIL the Messiah is crucified".

But THEN what happens?

Crearly and obviously the NEXT event takes place AFTER the 69 weeks. "THEN" AFTER the 69 weeks the Messiah is crucified!

This is THE great messianic timeline prophecy of the OT - by every measure.

But this GREAT Messianic timeline showing the appearing of the Messiah IN that 483 year timeline AND the crucifixion of the Messiah AFTER the 69th week (in what comes AFTER 69) -- is totaly OUTSIDE your chopped and tossed version of this 490 year 70-week timeline is it not??

Obviously and clearly - your version has no place at all for the great Messianic event of the cross IN the 490 year timeline, IN the 70 weeks.

If nothing else - this should have been a clue for you that something was wrong with your view.

That is the part we agree on -- you can't claim it IN the 69 weeks and you refuse to allow it IN what comes AFTER the 69th week - namely the 70th week. You seem to suppose that there is great doubt as to whether 70 follows 69 - but there is none whatsoever.

Indeed - the "annointing by the Holy Spirit" at His baptism - and the NT quote shows that God considered this to be an annointing.

The text SHOWS that this is the introduction of the Messiah's ministry - all scholars agree to that - there is no "room for doubting" on this one.

THE GREAT messianic text points to the START of the Messiah's mission AND ALSO includes the CROSS in that GREAT 490 year messianic timeline.

(Unless of course you chop and toss the 70 weeks into bits designed to duck any room for the Messianic events in history )

Hey wait a minute - you are being reasonable - your statement above is exactly what I am saying - the Messiah is introduced for the first time right at the end (but not AFTER) the 69th week.

However "THEN AFTER" the 69th week we have the OTHER big messianic event -- the cross.

SN the 483 year boundary we have the Baptism and START of Christ's ministry.

But then AFTER the 69th week -- IN the 70th week we have cross.

Absolutely true about his death. And this puts it totally out of your entire 490 year timeline as you stop JUST when the great messianic event is predicted.

The text does not say that the 58th week follows the 57th week in that 70 week timeline - but we know it does.

It does not say that the 2nd week follows the first week in that 70 week timeline - but we know it does.

And in Daniel 9:1-2 we are not told that Jeremiahs 69th year follows his 68th year in that 70 year timeline - but we know it does.

You have to admit that you are slicing and splicing this ONE TIMELINE in scripture contrary to what you would allow (or more to the point -- would not allow) in any timeline in all of scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

It doesn't say "in" at least in any translation I have. If I say there is going to be 23 days until February, will you think that February will come inside of those 23 days? Or does it clearly means "after" the 23 days? I think the answer is obvious. What isn't clear is whether you will accept it? What is even more unclear is why you are trying this tactic anyway. It isn't what the text says, it doesn't make sense, and you don't gain anything by it.

But alas, you regress. It does not say that Messiah will appear inside the 483 yaers and the crucifixion is after the 69th week to be sure, but that timeline you refuse to give from the text shows that the crucifixion takes place before the 70th week. I understand why you don't want to give a timeline based on the text alone. You wouldn't have anything left to argue with me about. You would agree with me.

Well, clearly, the text places the crucifixion after the 69th week and before the 70th. I would say that puts me on good ground for making that claim. Why dispute the text?

Come on Bob, don't stoop to false accusations. You know very well I believe that the 70th week follows teh 69th. But the text clearly introduces an intervening event ... the crucifixion. You can at least claim that the 70th week started in the first century, but don't place the crucifixion in it becasue that is not what the text says.

Daniel 9 says nothing about this.

The text of Scripture does say that, but the text of Dan 9 does not. It is nowhere to be found.

I assume you are referring to Dan 9 here, but it doesn't make sense since Dan 9 says nothing about the baptism or the start of Messiah's mission. I am not sure how many times I have to say that for it to sink in for you. I shouldn't have to say it at all, since the text is abundantly clear. And you tacitly admit that by refusing to show any mention of hte baptism in Dan 9.

Welcome to the party. I have been there for a while, Bob.

No problem there either.

No real argument from me. That is not hte point of Dan 9.

Here is where your problem starts. Why won't you sit down with the text and make a numbered order of events? Just write down "1" and write the first thing; then "2" and write the second thing, and so on. You will very quickly see the fallacy of your position. The crucifixion is not in the 70th week, according to the text. You have to rearrange the order for that. If you do this timeline, you will see it very clearly.

Absolute nonsense. I didn't stop the timeline at all. The death of Christ is in the timeline, between two points on teh timeline.

And in none of those cases do you have any event stuck in the middle. That is so easy to see, it is remarkable you keep missing it. Do yourself and us a favor. Go get a good commentary like Wood, and study this section. At least you can be familiar with our position, even if you don't adopt it. It should keep you from making these silly statements.

Actually, in all of Daniels' prophecies there are gaps. His prophecies do not, for the most part, consist of back to back events. Read his visions about the nations and then look at a historical timeline. You will see great gaps in between. So there is good precedent, as if we needed precedent to believe the text. Plus you have the clear statement of order in Dan 9. Plus you have the clear prophecies of 70th week events that have not taken place yet. What else do we need? Just a closing hymn to put this one to bed

 

If I say you have two days to complete your project -- you have two days -- not 3.

If I say that there will be 48hrs from the start of my project until the end - that does not mean 48hrs plus a day.

When the Bible says that Christ would rise on the third day - it did it on the third day.

When Dan 9 says "FROM the decree --- UNTIL Messiah the Prince -- there will be 483 years" it does not mean 484 years.

It is actually pretty easy, obvious and simple.

This is of the form "FROM the start of work day at 8AM UNTIL the boss shows up there will be 2 hours" -- it does not mean "AFTER 2 hours" as you "need" it to say. It does not say "FROM the decree UNTIL the Messiah is crucified there will be 483 years".

For the part about crucifixion -- it is clearly OUTSIDE the 69th week - BEYOND it BEYOND the 483 years "AFTER 69 weeks THEN the Messiah will be cut off".

Which puts it in the 70th week of this great 490 year Messianic timeline.

And as we know from history -- Christ shows up 483 years from the decree to His baptism AND then ministers for 3.5 years and IN THE MIDST of that 70th week -- is cut off.

It is all fulfilled -- perfectly!

Why chop-and-toss this great messianic prophecy so that it EXACTLY MISSES the events of the Messiah in the timeline?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Yes. Which places the INTRODUCTION of the Messiah and His Baptism IN the 69th week and places events FOLLOWING that - in the 70th week which is the ONLY WEEK that comes AFTER the 69th week.

Your entire ARGUMENT is that although the 70th week will come at some unknown time after the 69th week IT DOES not contain the great Messianic event that this timeline mentions as coming AFTER the 69th week!!

How tragic!

You seek to work it so THE great messianic timeline DOES NOT contain THE great messianic event that IT MENTIONS in Daniel 9!!

What a wakeup call!

NOTHING in the text says that events happen AFTER the 69th week AND BEFORE the 70th week!

You simply make it up!

That is amazing!!

Actually there is nothing there to show that "AFTER the 69th week" is NOT "the 70th week".

You simply make it up.

And the really instructive thing is that you have no Bible basis for doing this with any timeline in all of scripture.

In fact Daniel 9 STARTS with a 70 year timeline prophecy of Jeremiah - and like all other timelines in scripture -- you leave that one in one piece. You do not "chop and toss" segments all throughout history!

Why do it with this messianic timeline JUST so you can get the cross removed from it???!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

You are too kind.

Actually - I could always go to the Calvinist-vs-Arminian board and find something to debate with you over

The text does no such thing. However you have admitted that you are doing it! So here again - we have no argument I suppose. I claim you are leaving the greatest Messianic event in all of history OUT of the greatest Messianic timeline in scripture (the 490 year timeline we find in Daniel 9) and you admit you do it!

I claim that this great messianic event IS explicitly IDENTIFIED in that Daniel 9 section dealing with the 490 years and you ALSO admit that!

I claim that you chop-and-toss THIS ONE timeline JUST when it gets to the GREAT messianic event in all of history - and you admit you do it too!

Seems like we do have a lot of agreement on at least part of this topic!

You want to claim that that the part MISSING FROM the 483 years IS anything about the Messiah. EVEN thought the text says that FROM the decree UNTIL THE MESSIAH -- there is 483 years.

You turn this around to mean that NOTHING the text of Daniel 9 mentions about the Messiah happens in that 483 years!!

Then you want to say that what happens AFTER the 69th week - DOES NOT HAPPEN IN the 70th week!

It is just one catastrophic problem after another in the view you are holding.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[/QUOTE]Indeed - the "annointing by the Holy Spirit" at His baptism - and the NT quote shows that God considered this to be an annointing.[/QUOTE]

And the fact that even you admit His crucifixion is AFTER the 69th week means that even you have to admit that His baptism is IN the 69th week!!

And even you have to admit that the word in Hebrew used in Daniel 9 for Messiah IS "the annointed one".

So FROM the decree to rebuild UNTIL the annointed one there will be 69 weeks.

Like the baby Moses - you seem to be Living in denial.

Your view eliminates all messianic events that you will accept AS IN the text of Daniel 9 FORM The actualy years IN the 490 year timeline!!

Amazing!

Wrong. The 490 year timeline does not cover the civil war, or the revolutionary war, or the RCC or any "other events" you would like to place OUTSIDE the actual 490 years themselves SO YOU can't claim that for the cross any more than ALL of world history that you place OUTSIDE those 490 years.

And that is also clear, obvious and blatant in this discussion.

(Hmmm - now what did I do with that copy of Young's commentary?)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

I am not even going to read respond to all your posts. This is absolutley absurd. I asked you to make a timeline using the text. But you refuse, apparently. Why? I know why ... becuase when you use the text, you lose.

Here is a prime example of your problems. You say this is "easy, obviousl, and simple." You say this is the baptism (apparently). But the text does not say that. He was the Messiah before he was baptized. You cannot connect Messiach simply with the baptism. The text simply says "until Messiah." But the text does not say "until what." It is until his birth? Until his death? Until his public ministry? etc. You choose baptism, but you have no textual merit for that. You simply do not realize, for some reason, how much of a joke you are making of the text.

Here, I will give the text, and illustrate very clearly the problems you are having. I will not change a thing in the text. I will simply put numbers that show the order that Daniel gives.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand,

1. that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

2. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

3. and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

4. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now, you can very clearly see that that you have the end of the 69th week, the cutting off of the Messiah, then the beginning of the 70th weeek. The beginning of the 70th week is, in the text, so obviously after the crucifixion that it is mind-boggling to try to understand why you say otherwise. Daniel was clear. You are muddling it up to support your position.

The text is always the authority. YOu need to put aside your little pet positions and follow the text.

I have Young's commentary. It is very weak on this section. You can poke giant holes on virtually every paragraph.

 

Pastor Larry are you saying that there is a gap of time to where everything in the last part of Daniels prophecy just floats until Jesus comes back?
~~~~~~~~~~Time Line~~~~~~~~~~
<week#1>---<week2>------<everything up to the 69th week is right and on schedual as Daniel prophecied>-------(then a gap here and floats till the 2nd comming?)----<70th week the 2nd comming?>

Maybe I misunderstood? I just gave this thread a quick look and was trying to figure out these time lines. I do better with a time line like the one I used above.

Thank you
Music4Him

 

NOthing the prophecy floats until JEsus comes back. There is nothing in the prophecy to float. There is clearly a time gap in there. The only question is how long it is.