629 reasons why I'm a Calvinist

How does that make you not a follower of the "teachings of John Calvin." We Calvinists believe John 3:16 at least as much as you do. Of course, that is because Calvinists believe the Bible. I am not sure why you bring this up as if it disproves anything. It doesn't.

 

If you are taking each verse as a stand alone doctrinal principle without regard to its CONTEXT, then no matter what you are reading, your understanding is undoubtedly faulty! And, that appears to be what you are doing!

 

I do not have time now to answer them all, but believe me, I could, so I will look at a few.

It took root, just not a firm root. Your Corinthian passages show that we have no excuse when we sin. Yet, we will sin (I John 1:7-9).

II Cor 12:9 – Paul was talking about a physical infirmity, not spiritual. It was a thorn in the flesh.

• Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." - The only way one can be severed is if he were once connected.

NAS Gal 5:4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

ESV Gal 5:4You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Both of these are very literal translations. First, you cannot fall grace if you were never in grace. You cannot be severed from Christ if you were never part of Christ. Clearly, one can be severed from Christ and fall from grace.

• Romans 11:19-23 "You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."

Rom 11:22 says they were “cut off”. Rom 10:1-3 shows they were not saved. God cut them off when they did not accept the gospel. Were they lost? Yes. Notice their state was a state of “unbelief”. Our “grafted” state will be cut off, IF we do not continue and we will be in the same state as those natural branches that were cut off.

I Cor 15:1-2Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

If one is “Once saved always saved”, then to believe in vain is an impossibility, yet Paul states it is possible.

Notice the word “if”. What “if” you don’t keep it in memory? You have believed in vain.

• Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

It could be said that this passage is so plain a person would have to have help to misunderstand it. I could also list sermons to refute his, but that becomes a case of others discussing this, which is not profitable for either of us.

• Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."

What? II Thes 1:8 states God’s vengeance will come upon those who, “those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus”.

Vengeance in both cases. Unforgiven sinners are condemned already.

He also says “we”. Who is the “we”. Read Heb 10:19-25 to get the context of “we”.

• Acts 20:17,28-30 "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church." ... "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

Then why the warning?

• 2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

These verses are plain and explain themselves. There is a warning (as in other cases) because they are introducing “destructive heresies”.

• 1 Timothy 6:9-10 "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."

If you wandered from the faith, you are no longer in the faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). He is only a rewarder of those who “diligently” seek Him. If one wanders from the faith, is he diligently seeking God?

• 2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.""

Those who “pretend”? Where did that come from? No, they have escaped the defilements of the world. They were once entangled, but freed. Just like the clean sow, they return and become entangled again, this time worse than the first. To deny they had accepted it, is to deny the obvious. This passage clearly teaches that they escaped and are AGAIN entangled. They knew it, accepted it, and turned away. If they had never turned to God in the first place, it would be impossible for them to “turn away”.

• James 5:19-20 "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins." (this is not saving his "soul" from physical death - so it is saving his soul from spiritual death. - A passage could not be more clear that one of the brethern can stray from the truth which results in spiritual death).

If someone strays from the truth and someone turns them from the error of his way, he saves him (whether life and being, or just “soul” as every other translation except the NIV translates it as) from a) physical death or b) spiritual death? Which one, a or b?

Well it can’t be physical death, since all will die physically. This has to be talking about spiritual death.

OK, what happens to the person who is strays from the truth and nobody turns them? Either way, they will die physically, so the end result has to be spiritual death.

This one verse is a death blow to once saved always saved. A brother that strays from the truth with the end result, spiritual death, unless someone turns them from the error of his way.

• Revelation 3:5 "'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.

Oh really? Rev 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

How could the dead have their names in the book of life? If your name is erased from the book of life, what happens according to Rev 20:15?

be steadfast immovable: 1 Cor 15:58

So why the admonition?

If these qualities are yours...2 Pe 1:5-11

2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Notice, it takes diligence. Notice the conditional “if”. What if you don’t do those things? What if you aren’t diligent? You can fall. If you are diligent and do those things, you shall never fall. Again, conditional.
You said it is not talking about salvation. What is the everlasting kingdom he is talking about?

If one is “once saved always saved”, how could diligence make his “calling and election sure”?

we will reap if we do not grow weary: Gal 6:9

Gal 6:9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. – ESV

What happens if we do give up? We won’t reap. Reap what? Verse 8 tells us, “8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.”

We will reap eternal life, if we do not give up. What if we do give up? We won’t reap eternal life. If it were impossible to give up, this verse would be meaningless. However, we can give up and quit, so this verse of encouragement is given.

be faithful unto death and I will give crown of life: Rev 2:10

What about those who aren’t faithful? Those who have departed from the faith, as we've already seen? This is an admonition to be faithful. If it were impossible to fall, this verse would have no usefulness.

practice these things and God will be with you: Phil 4:9

Surely you are not saying one can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved? Where does the bible teach this? I John 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

We have to be in fellowship with God for the blood to keep cleansing us from all sin.

 

nman said:

 

That's easy, the words "keeping yourself" implies maintenance of that which you have, not gaining of that which you don't have!

Think about it!

 

It's rather really simple. There is absolutely nothing we can do to "earn" our salvation. It is impossible. We can't "earn" even one moment in heaven. Good works do not obligate God to save us (Eph 2:8-9).

However, without works, we have nothing more than a dead faith. Can a dead faith save? No, not according to James (James 2:14-26).

John says, "3And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: - I Jn 2:3-5

Most religious folks equate faith and belief. The bible equates faith with belief plus action. Heb 11 clearly shows that.

One simple example. Heb 11:30 states, "By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days."

Now we know the walls didn't have faith, so it was the people. Would the walls have fallen if they only believed and had no action? Certainly not. The verse indicates that because they only fell after having been encircled for 7 days.

Yes, their belief led to action, and the bible call it FAITH.

The text does not indicate that "by belief only the walls fell down". No, they fell by faith. Earlier, in verse 6, the Hebrew writer states, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him..." What kind of faith? Faith such as seen in verse 30. That word "impossible" is the same word used when the bible tells us it is "impossible" for God to lie or "impossible" for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Now, did the marching around the walls earn them merit? No. Did it obligate God to make the walls fall? No. If it did, then I could do those same actions today and God would "owe" it to me also. Surely nobody thinks we could follow those same guidelines today and have the walls fall down. Yet, if it was a meritorious action, God would owe it.

God made the walls fall. It was His work. Obedience was required, yet that obedience is not meritorious. By faith, the walls of Jericho fell. If you try to plug in belief only, it doesn't fit.

 

We can't afford to form our firing squad in a circle and shoot at each other. We need to reserve all our ammunition for the enemy that wants to bring us all down. The war-preventing, peace-keeping plan of God can be pretty well summed up in these twelve little words from James 1:19 - "Be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry." Remember, blessed are the peacemakers!

A WORD WITH YOU
By Ron Hutchcraft
#4817 - "How to End the War You're In"
Joshua 22:10

Listen to the audio broadcast!
http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/ramhurl?p=pnm&f=/rhm/sounds/awwy/awwy4817.rm

 

The Doctrine of Perseverance
The Future of a Fruitless Field
April 24, 1988

Hebrews 5:11-6:12

Even though it was 17 years ago this month, I can remember the very class session almost as though it were yesterday. The class was called Unity of the Bible, Dr. Daniel Fuller was the teacher, and for the first time I was confronted with the Biblical fact that one of the ways God causes us to persevere in faith and be saved is by warning us that we could make shipwreck of our faith and be lost.

Or to put it another way, I had never been shown from scripture that God graciously warns us that we could drift away and be lost; and that he does this precisely in order to strengthen our assurance that we will not drift away and be lost. And if you are today like I was then, something inside you may be saying, "My assurance and hope are not particularly helped by being told that I might drift away from God and be lost."

Do you see what is at issue here? We all come to the Bible with needs for hope and encouragement and strength. And the Bible stands ready to meet those needs. But we also come with a set of expectations—sometimes learned from our culture—as to how those needs are to be met. Like patients coming to the doctor with prescriptions already written in their pockets which we expect the doctor to sign or us.

If then the Bible takes a radically different approach to meeting our need for hope and encouragement and strength, we have to make a very crucial choice: will we reject the Biblical prescription and go to another doctor who will endorse our prescription for hope? Or will we humbly admit that God knows us better than we know ourselves, loves us more than we love ourselves, and look patiently for the wisdom in his prescription and counsel.

That's where I was, and that is where some of you are. Eager to attain the spiritual health of assurance and hope, but very skeptical that the prescription of Hebrews 6 is of any help. And my prayer this morning as we look at this text is not only that its meaning will become clear, but also that its precious and gracious usefulness in the fight of faith and in the perseverance of the saints will be felt by all of us.

You remember from last week that the main aim of 5:11 - 6:12 is to help us have full assurance of hope. We see this in 6:11, "We desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end."

But we also saw that something was starting to ruin that assurance in this church. The problem is called sluggishness in 6:12 and its called dullness of hearing in 5:11. We pictured a gymnast part way through his floor routine, starting to get fatigued, and with the fatigue starting to feel uncertain that he could complete his routine. He spring into a high double back flip. He is almost overcome by a panic that he can't pull it out.

The coach has seen this coming and knows that there are two things (or three as we will see today) that this gymnast needs. He needs immediate help to get down without breaking his neck. And he needs counsel about his sloughing off in practice.

To get him down the coach shouts, "Find the floor!" Which means, Look to Jesus. He is firm and sure and gives hope and strength. Jesus gives us our equilibrium in panicky situations. We saw this from Hebrews 11:2; 3:1.

Then after the competition is over the coach tells him that one of the reasons he got into trouble was failure to put the basics into regular exercise. We saw this in Hebrews 5:14. "Solid food (more advanced gymnastic training) is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil." In other words, this gymnast—this church—had not been putting his faith into daily practice. And when the organ of faith is not used it begins to die. And its faculties of discernment become dull and sluggish. And when the faculties of split-second discernment become dull, a gymnast begins to lose his confidence, and when a well-founded confidence begins to go, a terrible accident may be in the offing.

Which brings us to the third thing that the coach gives to his gymnast. The first was the urgent cry: Look to Jesus! He is a great Savior! The second was the serious counsel: go back to the beginning and exercise the organ of faith every day in little things and big things. And now third the coach gives a grave warning to the gymnast: if you ignore my counsel and continue on in this neglect you will become weaker and weaker and one of these days you are going to break your neck and never compete again.

And when the coach says that, it is not because he desires the ruin of his gymnast. He tells us very specifically what his desire for the gymnast is in 6:11-12—he wants him to have assurance and hope and confidence. He wants him (v.12) to have patient endurance. And he wants him to inherit the gold medal in the last day. But the difference between this Biblical coach and some of the Christian coaches of our day is that this coach does not want to give false assurance to gymnasts whose faculties are dull and unpracticed—who don't exercise the organ of faith in acts of daily obedience. False assurance is even more likely to lead to a broken neck than no weak assurance.

So our Biblical coach does not say to his gymnast: You ought to put your faith to practice, you know, but whether you do or not, or even if you don't finish your routines in the future, or even if you quit gymnastics, you will get your trophy—God will welcome you into heaven.

Instead here's what our coach says (and at this point I am going to drop the gymnastic imagery because in its place the Bible now puts a new image, namely, the image of two pieces of farm land, one that bears crops and one that brings forth thorns and thistles). The warning to the gymnast (who is now a farm) is in 6:4-8.

It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

We need to answer four questions about this warning in order to understand it and put it to work in our own fight to maintain the full assurance of hope to the end.
1. What is the danger? Lostness and condemnation? Or something less?

2. What brings this danger to pass? What must we do or not do so that this danger not befall us?

3. If this danger befalls a person, were they really born again, justified, adopted into God's family, sealed by the Spirit?

4. Should we, who believe that we are God's elect, justified by the blood of Jesus, reconciled to God, indwelt by the Spirit of sonship—should we apply this warning to ourselves?

I will try to answer these questions briefly and show you the basis for my answers from the book of Hebrews, and then tonight there will be a chance for questions as we try to tie the loose ends together.

1. What is the danger? Lostness and condemnation? Or something less?
The danger is real lostness for ever—the final curse of God and the fire of hell. He is not talking about a mere temporal disciplining of the child of God. He is talking about a final fiery curse. Let me give you three reasons why I think this is so.

1.1 First, the two pieces of farmland that are contrasted in verses 7-8 suggest that God's final curse is in view.

(First piece of farmland) Land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But (second piece of farmland) if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

The two fields represent two kinds of persons: one a fruitful person. The other a fruitless person. Three words point to the final condemnation and lostness of the fruitless person. The fruitless field is worthless (Cf. Rom. 1:28; 2 Cor. 13:5-7; 1 Cor. 9:27; 2 Tim. 3:8; Tit. 1:16), and it is about to be cursed, and it's end (not means but end) is burning. Worthless, cursed, destined for burning. That is the language of final condemnation.

1.2 Second, in Hebrews 10:35-39 the author urges them again not to throw away their assurance (v. 35) and he backs up his urging with another warning in verse 38,

My righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.

What is at stake in this shrinking back is destruction—the ordinary New Testament word for final condemnation. And the opposite of this destruction in verse 39 is keeping your soul.

1.3 Third, in Hebrews 12:14 the author says, "Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

The warning here is that a person that does not pursue holiness will not see the Lord. So what is at stake in this book is not seeing the Lord. But not seeing the Lord means exclusion from his presence, and that means ultimate and final separation in hell.

So what is at stake in this book when it urges us to persevere and warns us of danger if we don't is not merely some temporal discipline, but the curse and destruction and loss of never seeing the Lord Jesus and being burned in the fires of his righteous judgment. Hebrew 10:27 calls it "a fearful prospect of judgment and fury of fire." And 12:29 says, "Our God is a consuming fire."

2. Our second question is, What brings this danger to pass? What must we do or not do so that this danger not befall us?
Hebrews 6:6 speaks of apostasy or falling away. If they commit apostasy (fall away) then they get beyond the ability to repent. Now what is involved here?

The whole context tells us that more than a simple change of mind is involved. What's involved is a life that is persistently fruitless. That's the point of verse 7—the fruitless field. What brings the curse of God down on a person in this text is that they have drunk the rain of God's goodness year after year but have not brought forth any fruit. To use the words of 12:14, they have not pursued the holiness and therefore they will not see the Lord.

The issue of apostasy is not primarily doctrinal, but practical. It's the problem of 5:14 where they are unwilling to put there faith into practice, and so their faculties are getting dull, right and wrong are becoming hazy, and the writer says, if you don't stop drifting (2:1) and neglecting your salvation (2:3) and forsaking the assembling of yourselves together (10:25) you are going to be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin and fall away from the living God (3:12-13).

What exposes a person to the danger of eternal loss in this text is the persistent failure to exercise the organ of faith in pumping the blood of obedience (3:18; 4:11; 5:7-9; 10:36; 12:14). The issue at every point in 5:11 to 6:12 is the neglect of practical holiness not the abandonment doctrinal orthodoxy (as important as that is). And the falling away referred to in 6:6 is the point at which the heart becomes so hardened and indifferent that it is beyond help any more.

If you allow yourself to drift down the river of sin with no zealous pursuit of holiness and growth in grace, there will come a point of no return." This is the great folly of those who profess to be Christians but live a carnal life thinking that they will clean things up in their old age.

I've told the story once before of the vulture who spotted the corpse of a fox on a big hunk of ice floating down the river toward Niagara Falls. He flies to the ice, lands and begins to eat the fox. He watches the falls approaching and hears the warnings of danger, but he tells himself that he has wings and is free and does not need to pay attention to such warnings. He is destined for the sky. At the last minute he finishes his feast and spreads his wings but he can't fly because his talons have frozen in the ice and he is dragged over the falls to his destruction.

And so it will be with people who have heard the warnings of scripture to abandon their worldly lusts and pursue holiness, but who say, "I have wings, I am a Christian. I can fly anytime I want to." The day will come when they may try and will not be able to repent because they are so hardened and addicted to the world they can't even feel one genuine spiritual affection (12:17).

3. The third question was, Can this happen to persons who are really born again, justified, adopted into God's family, sealed by the Holy Spirit?
My answer is NO. It can't.

There are many texts in the New Testament that would demonstrate that this is so—that those who are justified by faith will infallibly be glorified. But let me show you two texts from the book of Hebrews that teach this—once you belong to Christ you always belong to Christ.

3.1 Hebrews 3:14 (NASB). "We have become (note the tense of the verb!) partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning or our assurance (well-grounded assurance, not false assurance) firm until the end."

Note carefully: it does not say that you will become a partaker of Christ if you persevere. I says you HAVE become a partaker if you persevere. The point is that persevering does not earn your participation in Christ, it verifies your participation in Christ. Perseverance is not a payment for getting into Christ. It is a proof that you are in Christ.

So the person drifts along in sin and makes no business in life of holiness does not fall out of Christ. He was never in Christ.

3.2 Hebrews 10:14. "For by a single offering [Christ] has perfected for all time those who are sanctified (literally: "those who are being sanctified")."

In other words when Jesus died he perfected a group of people for ever. He has done this in the past. It does not say that his death will perfect them if they get sanctified. It says that his death HAS PERFECTED those who are being sanctified. It's done and it is eternal. This is the same kind of thought we saw in 3:14. The pursuit of holiness (sanctification) does not earn us this perfection that Jesus secured for us in the past; instead the process of sanctification simply shows that we are among that number who were eternally perfected by the death of Jesus.

So a person who drifts into sin and neglects the pursuit of sanctification and falls away from God is not a person who was once saved by the death of Jesus and then lost that salvation, because Hebrews 10:14 says that salvation is an everlasting accomplishment for a certain group of people. And we our assurance of being part of that people is our perseverance in faith and the pursuit of holiness.

So I conclude, if someone drifts away from God and makes shipwreck of faith, they do not lose a salvation that they once had but show by their lack of perseverance that they never truly belonged to Christ, were never born again, justified, adopted, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

4. Finally then we ask, If this is so, should those of us who believe that we are God's elect, that we are justified by the blood of Jesus, reconciled to God, indwelt by the Spirit of sonship—should we apply this warning to ourselves? Should we read Hebrews 6:4-8 and take heed to ourselves.
The answer is Yes. We should. For at least two reasons.

4.1 When the writer of this book finishes his warning in 6:4-8 he says in verse 9, "Though we speak thus, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things that belong to salvation."

In other words, he has a strong confidence that his readers are NOT going to make shipwreck of their faith. They are not going to commit apostasy and fall away from God. They are going to persevere. But he knew this when he started writing this warning in chapter six just five verses earlier. So I conclude from this that the writer wants people whom he is very confident about to read his warning and take it to heart.

4.2 The other reason on believe this is the kind of description that he gives in verses 4-5 of the person who can fall away from God.

* That person can be enlightened—have much truth and insight into the Bible and the gospel.

* He can have tasted the heavenly gift and be a partaker of the Holy Spirit—the very Spirit of God can be at work in his life convicting of sin, drawing to Christ, revealing truths.

* He can have tasted to goodness of the word of God—sat under its influence from mother and Sunday School teacher, and pastor, confessed it to be good.

* And he can have tasted the powers of the age to come—he can, Jesus says in Matthew 7:22, prophesy and cast out demons and do mighty works in Jesus' name.

All this! and yet hear the dreadful words in the last day, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you."

For those two reasons I say, yes we all should take heed when we read the warnings of scripture.

But still we ask why? If we have burning in your heart today the confidence

that He who began a good work in us will complete it to the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6), that God will equip us with everything good, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight (Hebrews 13:21), that he is able to keep us from falling and to present us without blemish before the throne of his glory with rejoicing (Jude 24),

then why should we take the warnings against falling away so seriously?

And the answer is really very simple: God's way to keep us from falling is by enticing us with promises and sobering us with warnings.

The point of the promises is to engage our affections for the eternal glory of God. The point of the warnings is to disengage our affections from the perishing glory of this world.

The point of the promises is to make our mouths water at the prospect of infinite happiness in God. And the point of the warnings is to make our hearts tremble at the prospect of falling under the wrath of God.

And so the warnings of the Bible support our assurance in this way: they make us aware of the real danger of careless spiritual drifting, and then send us back with vigilance to the two main sources of assurance that we saw last week,

1) looking to Christ and all that he has done, and

2) exercising the organ of faith in the pursuit of the holiness without which no one will not see the Lord.

JOHN PIPER

 

Why does anyone want to lock themselves into the points of view of a man and call themselves calvinists. We are CHRISTians, that is locked into the teachings of Christ. Calvin obviously was not perfect. The teaching of predestination which promotes the idea that God has selected certain ones to be saved and certain ones to be sent to hell is ludicrous, imho. What do you think that would have to do with the love of God. God will have nothing to do with condeming anyone to hell whether the calvinist want Him to or not. God knows the future otherwise He could not have produced the visions of Daniel or Revelations and so on but it is a general outline of the future not the individual destination of each soul that God allows Himself to see. I believe God has allowed Himself to not see the ultimate end of indivdiual man so that He can do all He can, in love, to save their soul and not that He would not do it anyway but wouldn't He rather not know. I believe He chooses not to know. He knows the general end of things but has chosen not to know the individual destinies of men in general but of course He knows who He has chosen in particular. Because He has chosen some for the good does not mean He is choosing people for the bad. Did He ever say He chose anyone to go to hell? Of course not.

 

No one who calls themselves Calvinist is locking themselves into the points of view of a man. I can't think of one Calvinist who agrees with Calvin's point of view on everything. However, those who call themselves Calvinist are acknowledging that that's the name commonly given to a certain view of how people are saved. Many believers have held that viewpoint throughout the history of the church--way before Calvin existed.

Absolutely, and every Calvinist firmly believes that what they believe about how people are saved is exactly what Christ taught.

But your humble opinion isn't what counts, is it? What counts is what scripture says, and scripture says that certain people were elected from the beginning for salvation, and that God justifies and glorifies all those he predestines.

Huh? All sinners are condemned to hell by God already. It's that already condemned status that people are saved from.

I thought Christians should be "locked into the teachings of Christ". Where does Christ say any of this? That God chooses not to know the ultimate end of individual humans? That God does all he can to save every single person?

And the Calvinist view of election is not choosing people to go to hell. It's choosing people for salvation out of all those all ready condemned sinners.

 

i do not want to join this debate. i just ask one thing. not to prove anything....just asking

is this the full list of verses that are in the Bible showing....
rresistable Grace (Effectual Calling)

John 1:13; 5:25

Romans 5:9; 6:8

Ephesians 2:5,6; 3:1,7; 4:1

Collisions 1:12

1 Thessalonians 5:24

2 Timothy 2:11

James 1:18

if you have more..plz post the best ones

thanks

In Christ...James

 

I don't really have a list in my head, but I would certainly add 1 Corinthians 1:23-24:

we preach about a crucified Christ, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

John 6, too.

Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away.For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day....

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day....

But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is given him by the Father.”

 

Thanks

I'll check back in a few days letting others add some if they wish.

Thanks again

In Christ...James

 

I just started the list and I disagree.

Matthew 13:17 "For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."

You say that means election. I say vss 18-23 proves you wrong.

Vs 18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means.
19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
20 The one who received he seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy,
21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful
23 But the one who recieved the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred sixty or thirty times what was sown.

The field is the world.
Our hearts are the various soils.
If you have heard the message of God, but you don't understand - blame Satan - not God.
If you heard the message of God, understood it, and for just a short time pretended to embrace it, but deny Christ when you find out it isn't popular with the world - you're lost. You heard the word and rejected it.
The one who hears it, but puts the world's persuit of wealth above God doesn't bear any fruit for God.
The one who hears it, understands it, and DOES WHAT IT SAYS TO DO - will produce a crop for God.

That isn't about election.
That is about doing God's will.

 

I disagree with your assessment of Matthew 15:13 also.

The begining of the chapter is the account of when the Pharisees and teachers of the law complained that the disciples didn't wash their hands before they ate. Christ said, "Why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother, and anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death. But you say that if a may says to his father or mother, "Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God, he is not to honor his father with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You Hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you. 'These people honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain. their teachings are but rules taught by men."
Christ goes on to say that what goes into your mouth doesn't may you unclean, what comes out of it does.
And the disciples tell him he offended the Pharisees.
To which Christ responds.
13 "He replied, 'Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them, they are blind guides. if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the pit."
15 Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
16 "Are you still so dull," Jesus asked them.
17 "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body?
18 But the things taht come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man unclean.
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
20 These are what make a man unclean; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him unclean.

NOT about "who is elected." About the condition of a man's heart.

In fact, it would contradict the predestination theory. It says that what comes from a man's heart makes him unclean, not "God makes him unclean."