70 weeks described in Dan. 11

1) From Adam until the descending of New Jerusalem,
how many ages are there?

I don't know. The Bible doesn't say.

2) Is the Holy Spirit required for salvation?

Yes.

3) Does/Has God changed?

Nope.

4) Does/Has Jesus changed (besides the obvious)?

Nope.

5) Is the Holy Spirit "raptured" at the same
time as the believers?

No. "Raptured" means to get a glorified body without
dying. The Holy Spirit doesn't need a body.

6) Who are the 144,000 sealed Jews?

A group of Messanic Jews from the church age
raptured at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
selected for special service on the earth
during the Tribulation period.

7) Are these 144K Jews evangelists?

The Bible does not say it.
Millionare novel writers say it

8) Is there more than one way or method that one can be saved?

No. Salvation is through Jesus ONLY.

9) Are there different classes of the saved?

No. But count me among the haired saved
(as opposed to the bald saved).

A) Can the Jews be saved outside of Jesus?

No.

B) Is works necessary for salvation?

Yes, the works of Jesus are necessary.
No, the saved individual is saved by the works of Jesus,
not by their own works.

C) Will there be a mass period of evangelism during
the tribulation?

No, for gentiles.
Yes, for Jewish Israeli.

D) Is martyrdom a prerequisite for salvation
during the tribulation?

Yes, for gentiles.
No, for Jewish Israeli.

E) If the Holy Spirit is not here during the tribulation
then how can anyone be saved?

Unanswerable question based on a faulty premesis.
The Holy Spirit will be on earth during
the Tribulation period. However, the
Church Age (Time of the Gentiles) saints will
not be available* to witness guided by the Holy
Spirit. There will be Jewish/Israeli elect saints
(especially the 144,000) who will be witnessing.

*their written messages and bulletin board entries will help their

ministry work on into the Tribulation period.

F) Can God protect His children on the earth from His wrath?

Yes. God also gives the Gift of Martyrdom to some saints. The

Bible mentions 'giving your body to be burned'. Don't do it without

'charity' (KJVs) though.

10) Are those mentioned throughout the NT as elect
the Jews or the Church?

Yes. (in other words /I.E./ Both)

11) What are the moral implications on pre-tribbers
if they are wrong and the Lord comes at the
end of the tribulation only once?

None. The whole idea of every eschatological teaching
should be to encourage holy living NOW.

12) Does my belief in a post-trib return of our Lord affect
or negate my "rapture" at the beginning of the tribulation?

No. Only your personal relation to the Savior: Messiah Jesus.

13) Do you believe that only spiritual Christians
will be "raptured" out at the beginning of the
tribulation, leaving non-spiritual ones here?

Nope. I'm an ALL or NONE pretribulation rapturist.

14) Do you believe that since the word "church"
is not found between Revelation 4 and 21 the church
is not on the earth?

Yes, the gentile church-age church is not found.
The Jewish Israeli chruch is found after the
mid-trib crises

15) Since the early church fathers (ECFs) did not
believe in a pre-trib "rapture" did that affect
their salvation?

If the premesis is true, it did not affect their
salvation.
If the premesis is false, it did not affect their
salvation.

16) Which is superior, the English translations,
or the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek?

The translations written in the language
that I understand: 21st century English.
The nKJV is the best, but NIV, NASB, NLT
contain the written word of God: the Holy Bible.
{I wrote this back in 1998 (in the 20th Century)}. Now I'm using

the
TNIV = Today's New International Version (Zondervan, 2006) and

HCSB = Christian Standard Bible (Holman, 2003)

17) Do you believe the tribulation will be pre-mil,
post-mil, or a-mil?

pre-mil

18) Are the church-age saints (those today)
considered the Bride of Christ?

Yes. However, I do believe 'Bride of Christ' to be a literal metaphor

to be spiritually discerned

19) Are the OT saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

Yes.

1A) Are the trib-saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

Yes.

1B) Are the Jews who are saved after the tribulation
saved outside of the blood of Christ?

No.

1C) Why are people saying today "Where is the
promise of His return?" (Fulfilling
the scripture: 2 Peter 3:4 And saying,
Where is the promise of his coming?
for since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they were from
the beginning of the creation.)

They don't see God's mercy toward them.

1D) Can you, as a pre-tribulationist, afford to be wrong?

Yes. Trusting Jesus is a higher calling than
one's x-trib position. The same actions i call for
to be Rapture Ready in the church age are the actions needed for
a post-tribulation rapture.

1E) What are the implications on you, your family,
your friends, your church, should pre-trib be proven wrong?

They will probably be disapointed in me that i
didn't see that God had blessed us with the
gift of martyrdom.

1F) Can you quote a verse for us that says,
in the words of Christ, Peter, John, Paul,
whoever, "After that tribulation I will gather my church."?

No. But i have a concordance.
Want me to look it up?
(again, this was written in1998s. I have some real good

concordances now with computer & electronic Bibles. The

statement "After that tribulation I will gather my church." does not

appear in the Bible. God will gather his people before the

Tribulation, at the middle of the Tribulation, and at the end of the

Tribulation. "After that tribulation I will gather my church." would

be a true statement, if Jesus ever said it.

1F) You said you've been studying the Word for 50 years.
Did you arrive at pre-trib on your own,
or did you first discover it in the writings
of

Lindsay/Pentecost/Kirban/Scofield/Ryrie/LaHaye/Walvoord/Larkin,

et.al.?

None of the above.
The minister at the church where i was saved
taught a pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
I was 8-years-old. I believed what he said.
After that I read the Bible & studied it. Never did find
anything in the Bible contradicting the Pretribulation
Rapture.

Nice questions, Brother /1998 name suppressed/.
And your answers are?
Note that i will probably not respond to your answers
unless i feel i will have something of encouragement
to add an ongoing discussion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I'm looking for a writing that shows how the 3½-year periods are two in number. The 3½-years that the two witnesses are protected by God in Jerusalem cannot be the same 3½-years that God protects Yisrael in the wilderness.

 

Peterotto: //There are two forty-two months period (11:2; 13:5), two 1260-day periods (11:3; 12:6) and one "time and times and half a time" (12:14), each adding up to 3.5 years. If these are counted consecutively , then they add up to 17.5 years, if they are concurrently , then each of these time periods are the same 3.5 years. Could you tell me how you get 7 year tribulation out of these verses? Which years go where in the 7 year tribulation?//

Good question. I've got an answer alread written (though it took awile to find it?).

-------------------------------------
While this (note on another venue)
notes that 42 months of 30 days are
1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
there is another related prophetic time:
"time, and times, and half (a time)" or
'time, times, and a dividing of time'.
(Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).
Ah, these are mentioned, just no mention that
'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years.

Dan 9:27 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Dan 9:27 implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th week.
I believe the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
time-times-and-half-a-time passages & half weeks:

All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:

Dan 7:25 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And he shall speake great words against
the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke
to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand,
vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.

The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

Dan 12:7 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And I heard the man clothed in linnen,
which was vpon the waters of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand,
and his left hand vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer, that it shalbe
for a time, times, and an halfe: and when hee shall haue accomplished
to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall bee finished.

The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

Rev 11:1-3 [two references from KJV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen me a reede like
vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple
of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the Court which is without the
Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles, and the holy citie
shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
clothed in sackcloth.

The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days

Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are suggested

Rev 11:2 [KJV1611 Edition]:


The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of Holies & Holy Place
building is being built.
Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
is where the 3ed most holy shrine of the Muslim world stands
today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
about 686AD.

Rev 12:6 [reference #6 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two hundred, and threescore dayes.

The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years.

Rev 12:14 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.

God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.

Rev 13:5 KJV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and blasphemies, and power was giuen
vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.

This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
This also indicates two periods, both of which could be 3½-years
in length.

So here is what I end up with for the two suggested each 3½-year-periods from Daniel 9:27.

1. - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
- the two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years
- the holy city (Jerusalem) is tread underfoot (while the temple /in --- Jerusalem/ is built)

2. - The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
- the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
- The woman (Yisrael) flees into the wilderness 3½-years
- God protects the woman (Yisrael) in the wilderness 3½-years.

To use these to halves of Daniel's 70th week
(each 3½-years long) in any other manner puts one
into contradictions with different prophecies.
Several have mentioned, if 2 different periods, why
not five? To which I still say: no reason
to do that. Daniel in Daniel 9 just talks about the
two times.

One that keeps getting run into is the saying that
the two 3½-year periods have already happened.
That contradicts the saying in Daniel 9 that
the Messiah shall give of Himself AFTER THE
69th WEEK (not in the middle of 'week' 70).

 

Grasshopper: // So now dispies are forced to say "apostasy" is actually a rapture. The absurdity continues.//

Actually, it is the KJV I use to argue against the 'apostasy'. The Translators of the KJV had the English word 'apostasy' at thier disposal (it comes from the very Greek word that they translated 'falling away'). Why did they use 'falling away' in 2Thessalonians 2:3 ?

Anyway, except for Ice, most pre-tribulation rapturists, don't use 2 Thess 2 as a proof text.

BTW, I'm not a 'dispy' like other folks; I just show what the Bible says.

 

Thank you Ed. I really respect a person who is willing to answer, and who is honest.

But, my question was for Antiaging. I am pretty sure he has a different view than yours on the 7 year tribulation. I like to see him answer it.

 

Ed says this:

8) Is there more than one way or method that one can be saved?

No. Salvation is through Jesus ONLY.

Yet then says this:

D) Is martyrdom a prerequisite for salvation
during the tribulation?

Yes, for gentiles.
No, for Jewish Israeli.

So martyrdom and Jesus are necesarry for salvation in your view? You seem to say during this time Jesus alone is insufficient, martydom is also necessary.



G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
Thayer Definition:

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

The obvious context of apostasia is:

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means:

apostasis refers to the falling away from the faith, not planet earth.

 

//So martyrdom and Jesus are necesarry for salvation in your view?//

You don't have to split the hares -- rabbits are NOT a clean animal so are unsuitable for sacrifice.

I didn't say that was my view. What I said is totally based on scriptures.

All that is necessary FOR GENTILES in the TRIBULATION PERIOD is for the Gentiles to declare that Jesus is thier Lord while believing that God raised Jesus from the dead -- This is just like all other times, dispensations, etc. (Romans 10:9) What happens to GENTILES who declare Jesus is their Lord IN THE TRIBULATION PERIOD they are almost immediately martyred by having their head cut off. (Revelation 20:1-5)

My proof text of the haitus between the 69th and 70th week is Romans 11.

//apostasis refers to the falling away from the faith, not planet earth.//

I know what theGreek apostasi means: a departure (pre KJV Bibles) from something, usually the faith. I know that the Greek 'apostasi' means 'falling away' from something, usually the faith.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Paul says he will discuss two subjects, two different sets of events, connected in Greek by 'kai', freequently AND in English. the two subjects are
1. the gathering of the saints by Jesus
2. the Second Advent of our Lord Jesus to whip the antichrist and set up the physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

The Second Advent of Messiah Jesus is mentioned again in 2-Thess-2:2 'day of Christ' (in KJV) or 'day of the Lord' (many MVs). Where is the 'gathering' mentioned? the only place i've found where the 'gathering' is to be found is the 'apostasia' in 2Thess2:3. Here is the order of events:

gathering
revelation of antichrist
Second Advent

Why didn't the KJV Translators put 'apostasy' in - it was a perfectly good English word IN USE 1605 to 1611? How come the Geneva Bible translators not use 'apostasy' in 1560? The pre-Westcott&Hort thought here that 'falling away' and 'departure' instead of the English word 'apostasy'. were they closet pre-tribualtion rapturists?

 

That is correct.

The fact is that no numeric timeline prophecy in all of scripture can be sliced and diced with undefined gaps of time "inserted" and still preserve the prophetic timeline of 70 years (as is the case in Dan 9) or the timeline of 490 years (70 weeks of years) as also in the case of Dan 9.

Obviously.

The OP asks no questions but simply assumes that the 490 years of Dan 9 are in some way mentioned in Dan 11.

then in a recent post the 1260 years of Dan 7 (also mentioned in Rev 11 and 12) - there we have the single span of 1260 years (the Dark Ages) mentioned again and again -- but just mentioning it - does not cause it to "happen over and over again".

It only happened once.

in Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan: //IT would make the whole thing worthless for predicting the timing of the Messiah.//

Yep. So nobody knows UNTIL IT HAPPENS when Jesus will come get us.

 

Luke 21:24 (KJV1611 Edition):
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall bee led away captiue into all nations, and Hierusalem shall be troden downe of the Gentiles, vntill the times of the Gentiles bee fulfilled.


But wait, how can gentiles fit into a strictly Jewish 70 weeks of Daniel?

Times' here = from the time of the First Advent of Messiah until the Second Advent of Messiah. 'Fulness of the Gentiles be come in' is the end of the 'times of the Gentiles'

Rom 11:25-26 For I would not, brethren, that ye should bee ignorant of this mysterie (least yee should bee wise in your owne conceits) that blindnesse in part is happened to Israel, vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saued, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne away vngodlinesse from Iacob.

Sounds like a good 'skip' to me. But hey, it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that "Daniel's 70th week = the Tribulation". One needs to figure it out for them selves. I do it strictly from the Bible. I don't kneed Walvoord or LaHay or anybody else -- Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, and James -- they do a good job along with the O.T. prophets King David, Isaiah, Daniel, and Ezekiel.

 

Indeed the "times of the gentiles" are not included at all in the 70 weeks (490 year Messianic timeline starting in the 5th century BC) that points us to the time of the Messiah.

Next.

 

As it turns out the Messiah has already come - so the greatest Messianic timeline prophecy in all of scripture - the 490 timeline of Daniel that started in the 5th century BC -- is "a done deal" and we can see that it maps out perfectly.

It works - just like ALL OTHER numeric timeline prophecies in scripture -- by not slicing and dicing it and inserting undefined gaps of thousands of years into it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The 42 months (1260 years) in Rev 11 and 1260 prophetic days (1260 years) of Dan 12 are all the same 3.5 (times time and half time) mentioned in both Dan 7 and in Rev 12 -- it is the 1260 years of dark ages that came shortly after the NT period.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Just getting to the basic point that "you can not slice up timelines inserting 1000's of years of undefined non-specific time gaps into them" is the incredibly modest point of "agreement" that I was looking for on this thread and in our case we seem to have that GE. So indeed -- that's one.

I am content with just trying to get people to come around on that one point - without even worrying about going on to more detailed points such as the exact year they choose to believe that the timeline starts or ends in predicting the coming of the Messiah.

That simple basic point alone - is controverted to the last breath it seems.

in Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan: //I am content with just trying to get people to come around on that one point - without even worrying about going on to more detailed points such as the exact year they choose to believe that the timeline starts or ends in predicting the coming of the Messiah.//

Though my 'one point' differs from yours, I agree with the criteria.

BTW, there is a difference between knowing the year beforehand and afterwards. The year of the Second Coming of Messiah Jesus AKA: DAY OF THE LORD, is still to happen and still unknown.

BTW, your point has Jesus committing the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION (AoD). 'abomination' is something that totally turns God off. I believe that God was pleased with the sacrifice of Jesus. I know I am, without his sacrifice, a Perfect Lamb of God, I would still be lost in my sins and trangressions.

BTW, there is a difference between knowing the year and the event ahead of time. The year and the event can easily be known after the event. This means that the event that starts the 1260 years of the Middle Ages and the event that ends it -- you can tell us that they were straight from the Bible. This means that the year the 1260 days of the Middle Ages start and the year that 1260 days of the Middle Ages stopped according to History. (Bbe sure to mention the influence on those in Africa, China, Americas -- these events should be obvious to the whole world and not just Euro-centric mumblings.

My two events that start the 70th week of Daniel will be obvious, once they happen.

I believe that there are two SECOND ADVENT events:
1. the coming of the Lord at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel
to take we that are His to heaven
2. the coming of the Lord at the end of the 70th week of Daniel
to whip the Antichrist and the Antichrist-ones.

I've already written the difference:
--------------------------------------------

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) [AKA: gathering]
with the Second Advent (SC = Second Coming): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Messanic Kingdom [AKA: Glorious Appearance].

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and Kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21-22).

13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
-- from the wrath to come (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9)
13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come (Matt 3:7, Luke 3:7)
--------------------------------------------------

\o/ Praise Hasheem \o/

 

GE
Yes, a sad state of things. Strangest to me is WHY? What, could be the reason Christians cannot accept the 70-week prophecy does not apply to Christ? Not even while the Christian will ever admit all the Scriptures point to Him and in HIM, are fulfilled? WHY not, this most obvious of almost all prophecy?

 

I suggest as the best defence of the 70-week prophecy to be Messianic in every respect - indeed strongest possible confirmation that it is - is to place it side by side against the Prophecy of Jesus Christ within the Passover, and see how the two in broadest scope and finest detail match up : perfectly!

 

I think the reason people so to speak are afraid to explain the 70-week prophecy as pointing to Christ and FULLY fulfilled in Him, are the frequent dates and datings that become involved as a result. They are afraid they make themselves guilty of 'time-setting' -- in the same sense as predicting when Christ will come again. But Daniel's prophecy does not foretell Jesus' Second Coming. To set times for Christ is why some cut the seventieth week away from the rest to apply it to the far or near future. But as I said, Daniel's prophecy is about Christ's FIRST coming, ONLY. Understood thus, there remains no reason why not to see it eschatological of Christ.

 

Who are convinced by the eschatology of the prophecy are 'scared out of their faith' (as we say in Afrikaans) by the time-setting linkage of the 70 weeks with the 2300 morning and afternoon offerings-symbology to reach 1844 (ironically arithmetically erroneously calculated). (What we gain on the one hand we for vain gain forfeit on the other .)