1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured A Baptist church which cannot 'project' or 'merge' its sovereignty into a 'general body' of any kind

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Alan Gross, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The CHURCHES THAT JESUS BUILT are Baptist Believing churches
    and are each A Baptist church which cannot 'project' or 'merge' its sovereignty
    into a 'general body' of any kind, nor 'delegate' its powers.
    There is not and cannot be a 'Baptist' 'federal body'." - BHC

    WordPress.com
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    4,278
    Likes Received:
    62
    I don't believe what you are saying can be supported by scripture.

    The New Testament calls for Christians to do all things in an orderly manner. There are few specific guidelines: such as male leadership, ordinances to be oberserved and such.

    We have the example of the church in Jerusalem giving instructions to churches outside Jerusalem concerning gentile membership.
     
  3. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    25,005
    Likes Received:
    555
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So are "Bible churches" also part of the church that Jesus Built?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,994
    Likes Received:
    3,429
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Baptist" is not a denominational name but a doctrinal identity.

    There are many churches that don't have the name "Baptist" on the church sign that are baptist in doctrine. And there are many churches that have the name "Baptist" on the sign that are not baptist in doctrine.
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
  5. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    12,049
    Likes Received:
    1,302
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Or as Francis Wayland once wrote in his Principles and Practices of Baptist Churches, Baptist churches cannot be represented.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    43,727
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Who is BHC and can you give an example of a "federal body"?
     
  7. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    12,049
    Likes Received:
    1,302
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think BHC is B.H. Carroll.
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    B. H. CARROLL
    Late President of Southwestern Baptist
    Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas

    A federal body as an organization of government is a system that divides up power between a central 'home office', or national, or global government, for example, and smaller local governments (the word 'body' is used generically, speaking of a federal hierarchy involving distribution of power, as in "Identifying Federal, State, and Local Government Bodies", or "Governing bodies of higher education institutions".

    Sorry, the 'body' word used by Br, Carrol is an abstract concept and, of course, is always making reference to a specific gathering of individuals. In this case, it would be that "There is not and cannot be a 'Baptist' 'federal body' " that has governmental say so, or 'authority' over an individual congregation of Organized Baptists, who have Jesus Christ as their Head and therefore not 'Headquarters', as their Head.

    Ephesians 1 has God the Father PUTTING Jesus as The Head of "the church", which when you drop the generic abstract usage of "the" in "the church",* it becomes "churches". Jesus is The Head of Each of His churches because God the Father Put Him there.

    "22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

    *an abstract concept and, of course, is always making reference to a specific gathering of individuals, which in the application to Scripturally Organized Baptists will mean a self-governing, 'autonomous', body each time.
     
  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When the term 'Bible' is used regarding the definition of The churches Jesus Built, there are certain Scriptural Distinctive Characteristics that indicate the status of a church that Jesus Built.

    Before going into those, the Bible also defines

    from:
    The Church
    that Jesus Built

    By Roy Mason, Th.D.
    8.1a: THE CHURCH THAT JESUS BUILT - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
    1. THE FAMILY OF GOD. "The Family of God includes all of the children of God in heaven and on earth. In Ephesians 3:15, Paul speaks of the 'whole family in heaven and an earth.' This family includes all believers. 'Ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.' Gal. 3:26. All believers are God's children. Since Old Testament saints were saved by faith in Christ (Acts 10:43, Rom. 4:16, etc.), they are all members of God's family.

      God's family is bigger than the kingdom of God or the church of God, for it now contains all of the saved from Abel to the last man who believed, whether in heaven or on earth. God has only one family. All believers are children and heirs of God.

    2. THE KINGDOM OF GOD. "The Kingdom of God includes all of the saved on earth at any given time. In Matthew 13 the kingdom is used to include all professors. But, the kingdom as used in John 3:3-5, Matthew 16:19;11:11, Luke 16:16, Romans 14:17, Coloss. 1:13, John 18:36, etc., is composed of all the born again on earth. This is not the kingdom of Daniel 2:44, Luke 19:11-27, Acts 1:6, etc. Those passages refer to the millennium. That kingdom is yet future. What is sometimes called the spiritual kingdom is composed only of those who have been born again, who have been 'translated out of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son.' In John 3:3-5 the Master said, Except a man be born anew be can neither see nor enter the Kingdom of God, In Matt. 18:16 and Mark 10:13-15 the Master shows very clearly that the kingdom is composed of only such as have received Him, whether children or adults.

      "The family of God includes all of the saved of all the ages, whether in heaven or on earth; the kingdom. of God includes that part of the family of God who are on earth now."

    3. THE CHURCH OF GOD. "The church of God is never used of any institution, except of an assembly or congregation of baptized believers in some given locality. E. g., the church of God at Corinth. " -1 Cor. 1:2.



    "The local individual church is the only kind of church God has on this earth today.

    There is only one family of God, composed of all the redeemed of all the ages in heaven and on, earth.

    There is, only one kingdom of God, composed of all the born again on the earth now.

    There are thousands of churches of God on earth.

    Every individual Baptist church is a church of God.

    No others are.

    When a man is born again he is born into God's family.

    He is in the family of God forever.

    The relationship does not change.

    Whether in heaven or on earth he is in Gods family.

    When he is born again he also enters God's kingdom.

    This relationship is for life.

    When he dies he passes out of the kingdom of God on earth and enters 'His heavenly kingdom' (II Tim. 4: 18).

    After he has been born again be is not yet in a church of God but is now a scriptural subject for admission into a church of God.

    'The Lord added to the church daily the saved' (Acts 2:47).

    Church membership was not something a man got with salvation, but a subsequent blessing he got after salvation by being added to the church.

    Baptism is not essential to admission into either the family of God or the kingdom of God; but baptism is essential to admission into a church of God.

    Men are born anew into the family of God and into the kingdom of God; but4heyare baptized into a church of God (I Cor. 12:13).

    The 'one body' referred to by Paul in I Cor. 12:13 was the church of God at Corinth.

    Note in I Cor. 12:27 he says, "We are a body of Christ and member's in particular.'

    That local church at Corinth was the body of Christ at Corinth. The members of the church at Corinth belonged to only 'one body' of Christ. That body of Christ probably did not contain all the saved at Corinth (I Cor. 1:2) and none of the saved anywhere else except at Corinth.

    Since they belonged to only' one body' and that was the local church at Corinth, Christ has no other kind of a church or body except a local church.

    If they had belonged to a local church at Corinth, which Paul said was a body of Christ, and then to the kind of church that some believe in, composed of all the saved every where, they would have belonged to two churches or bodies of Christ---one local and visible, the other universal and invisible.

    The New Testament shows nothing of any such confusion as that. God is not the author of any such confusion.

    Jesus Christ has only one kind of church or body on this earth, and that is the local assembly--the organized body of baptized believers in any given community.

    The church which Paul called 'the house of God' was a local church. The church which Paul said was the 'pillar and ground of the truth' was a local church.

    The church to which the Lord Jesus promised perpetuity (Matt.16:8) was a local church, for He never spoke of any other kind. The meaning of the word ecclesia permits of no other kind."
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    43,727
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am not asking for the definition I am asking for an example.
     
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My interest is in 'what constitutes The Kind of church that Jesus Built' and not 'what religious Hierarchy' is unscriptural.

    from: 8. 4 The GOVERNMENT of The Churches Jesus Built - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.

    The first two of these are Federal forms of 'church government' and these Federal Bodies are Not of God.

    THREE FORMS OF CHURCH GOVERNMENT


    There are three forms of church government in existence today among the professed followers of Christ. All groups of professing Christians, that is, all denominations may be, generally speaking, classed under these three forms. They are Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Congregational.

    1. The Episcopal form is a graded ministry; a system of big "I,s" and little "U,s." Episcopacy recognizes three orders or ranks of ministers, namely, deacons, priests, and bishops.

    The Roman Catholic Church is a world church, recognizing the bishop of Rome as supreme head. The Romanist view is based upon the idea that Christ gave to Peter such authority and that the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) is the successor of Peter.

    The Episcopal form is also represented in national and provincial churches. This means that the members of the church in any province or nation are bound together in

    national or provincial organizations, and that this organization has authority over the local groups. This is the form held by: the Episcopal and Methodist denominations

    2. The Presbyterian form recognizes two classes of elders-preaching elders and ruling elders. The authority in this form of government is in the "Session" which is composed of the pastor and ruling elders of the local congregation. They transact the business of the church, receiving and dismissing members, etc. An appeal, however, can be made to the Presbytery, and from the Presbytery to the Synod, and from the Synod to the General Assembly.

    3. The Congregational or Democratic form of church government is the Scriptural form. This means that each local congregation or assembly is a little democracy under the rule of Christ. "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing" (Eph. 5:24). It is independent of every other congregation. From the divine side, the church of Christ is a monarchy with Christ as its Lord and Head (Eph. 5:24); from its human side it is a democracy, "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren...Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ" (Matt. 23:8,10). An absolute monarchy on its Divine side requires for its complement on the human side and absolute democracy.
     
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    43,727
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks for the examples, did you believe someone on here would debate that?
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    5,236
    Likes Received:
    1,170
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Help me out here. Was not B.H. Carroll affiliated in some way to the Southern Baptists, and is there not inevitably a 'merging of sovereignty' into a 'general body' and a 'delegation of powers' in such an affiliation? I ask as a Brit who knows little about the Southern baptists.
     
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There's no 'debate'.

    There is no 'debate' on the '
    'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' Forum.

    It's just 'called' that.

    There's 'The Bible' and those who deny their Maker.
     
  15. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    25,005
    Likes Received:
    555
    Faith:
    Baptist
    NO! We simply cooperate together. Contrary to common thinking - the SBC does NOT require any church to give money to the Cooperate missions program We have the Baptist Faith and Message - which is a basic doctrine statement - the current one is from 2000, but many SBC churches still use the 1963. Also the BFM leaves out several doctrines - those are up to the local church to decide. Attending meetings is also optional! I was at our local Association meeting 2 weeks ago - out of 50 churches - about only 10 were represented.

    As our DOM said - Southern Baptists are more independent than Independent Baptists!
     
  16. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    25,005
    Likes Received:
    555
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My question was: So are "Bible churches" also part of the church that Jesus Built?

    A simple yes or no will do.
     
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A 'Convention' and a 'Seminary' are different animals than The church that Jesus Built. The Lord's churches are The Supreme Court, literally. "...Carroll’s resolve for the seminary to be accountable to the churches is most vividly captured in his deathbed injunction to Lee Scarborough, his successor as president of Southwestern Seminary. Carroll instructed Scarborough, “Lee, keep the Seminary lashed to the cross. If heresy ever comes in the teaching, take it to the faculty. If they will not hear you and take prompt action, take it to the trustees of the Seminary. If they will not hear you, take it to the Convention that appoints the Board of Trustees, and if they will not hear you, take it to the great common people of our churches. You will not fail to get a hearing then.” [11] ~ [11] Spivey, “Benajah Harvey Carroll,” 169.
    from: The Worst Decision B. H. Carroll Never Made: Southern Seminary, the Whitsitt Controversy & the Quest for Institutional Accountability - Jason K. Allen

    A 'Convention' and a 'Seminary' must be accountable to the churches. In a 'Convention' there are representatives of The Lord's churches which convene, without having authority over any given church and if the churches do acquiesce their authority to a 'Convention' they all acquiesce their Authority from God, to man.

    We find that out when the people vote 'no' on a matter and the Headquarters votes 'yes' and does what they care to do.

    Some with a 'Seminary', with students and teachers each subject to the Authority of their own churches, simply meeting in agreement to learn.

    BHC "... served a mentor and teacher to young ministerial students, created an “embryonic seminary” that met at the church and established the Bible department at Baylor University, Lefever noted." The Worst Decision B. H. Carroll Never Made: Southern Seminary, the Whitsitt Controversy & the Quest for Institutional Accountability - Jason K. Allen

    “Beginning with thousands of students he himself trained at Baylor and tens of thousands more who attended the seminary he established, innumerable churches, mission fields and seminaries on those fields around the globe have been touched by his educational vision, which is still alive among Texas Baptists,” he (Spivey) said." The Worst Decision B. H. Carroll Never Made: Southern Seminary, the Whitsitt Controversy & the Quest for Institutional Accountability - Jason K. Allen

    To answer your question, although I don't know when this happened in relation to Br. Carrol, for the Southern Baptists to exercise a 'merging of sovereignty' into a 'general body' THAT CAN NOT HAPPEN.

    THE LORD'S CHURCHES MAY RELINQUISH THEIR SOVEREIGNTY into a Form of Government where there is a 'Hierarchical Body' they acquiesce their Authority to and submit themselves to the 'delegation of powers' in such an affiliation, at which time they cease to be a church of The Lord Jesus Christ
     
  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    43,727
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is debate. Reasonable people can see or understand things differently. There is one truth by God as shown in His word but we are not perfect and no one has a perfect understanding of God's word. So yes there is debate.
     
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Genesis 2:17; "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

    That's 'The Bible' I'm talking about.

    God said that the day Adam ate of the 'forbidden fruit' he would die. Adam ate.

    "Adam did not die" would be the Infinitely Incorrect position of those who deny their Maker.

    There is no 'debate' between Calvinism & Arminianism.
     
  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do you mean 'Bible churches' that have precious little use for 'The Bible', Practically, Doctrinally, or Organizationally?

    Do they teach, "Jesus Christ IS NOT THE SAVIOR"?
    LIKE ARMINIAN 'BIBLE CHURCHES'?
     
Loading...