A Biblical Theology

The "salvation" of which Paul speaks in that text is salvation from sin and doctrinal error. We know that for because:

A. Paul would never speak of an unbeliever as "elect" because the Bible everywhere represents all unbelievers as being non-elect.

B. If Paul was talking about "elect unbelievers" no amount of endurance on his part would make an iota of difference in whether they obtained their salvation or not.

C. Paul told Timothy in his first letter that by taking heed to himmself and his doctrine he would "both save thyself and them that hear thee" which obviously can't be talking about the new birth since Timothy and the flock he was left to oversee were already born again believers.

D. The context of II Timothy chapter 2 is pastoral care, not evangelism.

Mark Osgatharp

Mark Osgatharp

 

Because Jesus said that those who don't believe are not His sheep while Calvinism says that some people who don't believe are His sheep.

"Atonement" is an English word that is used only once in the King James Version of the New Testament, Romans 5:11. As you have admitted,Romans 5:11 means "reconciliation." The English word "Atonement" meant reconciliaiton in 1611 when the King James Bible was translated and that is why they used it in Romans 5:11.

If you look at a common Websters College dictionary it will tell you that the first and obsolete meaning of "Atonemnt" is "reconciliation." "Atonement" is not a mistranslation of the text, it is simply a word whose meaning was modified in the English language after the King James translation was made.

With that understanding I can say that I definately believe in "limited atonement" - because the reconciliation is limited, according to Romans 5:11, to those who have received it.

I might agree with that if by "finally" you mean "in the resurrectin".

That not withstanding, I have heard and read Calvinists who teach that believers don't fall away period. I heard a young Calvinist student from Southern Seminary preach in Ohio a couple of months ago and he said that if (among other things) you smoke cigarettes and don't feel bad you might not be saved. I have heard and read many such things from Calvinists.

By the way, the same man also said that Christ took on Himself the sins o"f all who would believe on Him", though some of the Calvinsts in this forum deny that Calvinism teaches Christ's death was not sufficient for all.

I'll stand with John who said He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Mark Osgatharp

 

You said that "eternal glory" means "heaven" but Paul didn't say that. Read the context. It is about eternal reward for faithfulness.

"And if a man also strive for the masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully."

But you said,

By stark contrast, Paul said,

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Now don't tell me that some of the elect believers at Ephesus didn't need some deliverence from sin and error. Paul said they did.

Paul is telling Timothy that he endures all things to fight these heresies and deliver God's people from them, and that Timothy should do the same.

As a matter of fact, Paul told the elders at Ephesus that after he left wolves would enter in not sparing the flock and admonished them to "feed the church of God" which He has purchased with His own blood (Acts chapter 20).

But Jesus said, "But ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."

I say it is you who has assumed your conclusion and have tried to force Jesus' and Paul's words into it.

This says that God chose believers in Christ as a class of people. Only those who actually believe are in Him and therefore personally elected.

But what "salvation" did they need? If they were elect they were alredy believers because only beleivers are elect. The salvation they needed was salvation from doctrinal error as the context clearly shows.

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If Calvinism is true, then no amount of obedience or disobedience on my part will make one ounce of difference in anything.

What you have done is taken one sentence that sounds like it supports your philosophy and ignored the whole context.

Mark Osgatharp