A Case for Israel as God's Chosen People

Rather "Professing Chistendom" is following a similar pattern (see Matthew 13 where Christ prophecies the mysteries of the kingdom one of which is the infiltration of the tares sown by the devil among the wheat).

And yes, there will be the "destruction" of the works of the devil.

Matthew 13

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.​

But of His Church: "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".

HankD​

 

Hello Havensdad, that was a very interesting teaching, and I was in agreement up to a point. Where this young man lost me is when he jumped to the conclusion that what Paul is teaching in Roman's 9 is that when gentiles are saved they become Jews. I don't agree with that conclusion, I think what Paul was saying takes a different direction . . . that even among the seed of Abraham, only those Jews who are saved count as Israel. Circumcision of the flesh profited nothing in the day of Israel’s judgment, it was those Jews who were circumcised in the heart who were saved, beginning with the 12 Apostles who are the foundation stones of the Church.

I think Paul was making this distinction between unredeemed Jews and redeemed Jews to make a point, and that is borne out by the fact that Paul introduces this whole subject by saying he was grieved over the Jewish people because they do in fact have a special place in God's plan, as Paul points out in verses 4 and 5. But he is trying to instruct the Romans that the Gospel had not been "none-effective" to the Jews, which is what Dispensationalism teaches, that the Jews as a nation rejected the Gospel and therefore God turned his attention to the Gentiles, but instead Paul's teaching actually contradicts the notion that the nation of Israel had been "set aside" and remained unredeemed, or as he put it, "as though the word of God hath taken none effect," for Israel.

So to explain God’s salvation of the Jews, Paul launches into a rather lengthy teaching about how God ordained all this from the very beginning, that even among all the physical descendants of Abraham, it is after all God who chooses who will and who will not be saved, which is the lesson we are to learn from what God did with the founding of the nation and the birth of Isaac and Ishmael, and then with Jacob and Esau. You remember the story, how Ishmael was the firstborn son of Abraham and by law was the heir of Abraham but Ishmael was cast out and Isaac became the heir. There is a powerful lesson there about who among the Jews God counts as "Israel." And then again, when Jacob was chosen over Esau, even before they were born, which again was done by God to establish this principle . . . that salvation, even for the Jews, is the gift of God through faith, not an inheritance guaranteed by birth.

Paul even goes on to show how that some Jews were "fitted for mercy" and how some Jews were "fitted for destruction" (see verses 19-23), speaking of the destruction that was fulfilled against the nation of Israel in the last days of the Old Covenant. Upon some Jews God poured out his mercy, but upon most Jews of that generation God poured out a terrible judgment!


Then in verses 27-29 Paul goes further and explains that Isaiah (10:22-23) had long ago foretold that even “though the number of the children of Abraham would be as the stars of heaven and the sands of the seashore for multitude,” yet only “a remnant would be saved,” redeemed, only a few would be chosen, only a few would be vessels of mercy, the majority would be “vessels fitted for destruction” which would be destroyed in the judgment that was coming upon the people of Israel that very generation which saw the coming of Jesus. In fact, Paul quotes Isaiah 9:1 which said that there would be so many Jews slain that, had the Lord not cut short the days, Israel would have been left like Sodom and Gomorrha, completely wiped out. But for the saved Jew’s sake God cut short that terrible judgment and destruction.

This is the same identical lesson Paul teaches in Galatians 4:21-31 where he says that these two groups of Jews, those who receive the Gospel and those who reject it, (the latter of which would far outnumber the former) speaks allegorically of the New Covenant Jews (prefigured by Isaac being born by a freewoman-Sarah) and Old Covenant Jews (prefigured by Ishmael who was born of the bondwoman-Hagar). Notice all the parallels Paul draws and that again, using different language this time, Paul quotes Isaiah 54:1 which again speaks of the unsaved Jews (the children of the bondwoman-the Old Covenant Jews) being many more than the saved Jews (the children of the freewoman-the New Covenant Jews), and in verse 29 Paul even draws the parallel between Ishmael’s persecution of Isaac as a figure of the Old Covenant Jews persecuting the New Covenant Jews, which is precisely what occurred during that last generation of the Old Covenant dispensation when the Jewish Church (New Covenant Jews-children of the freewoman-Christian Jews) was persecuted by the Jewish authorities (Old Covenant Jews-children of the bondwoman-Rabbinic Jews).

And notice particularly that Paul’s conclusion on this whole teaching is that, in the end, the bondwoman (the Old Covenant) and her children (Rabbinic or Old Covenant Jews) would be cast out and would not be heirs with the freewoman (the New Covenant) and her children (Christian or New Covenant Jews).

So all in all, it seems that what all these things teach is not that gentiles become Jews when they are saved, but that God chooses among the Jewish people who are the heirs of Abraham and who are not, and I think it incontrovertible that it is Christian Jews who count as Israel and who are the heirs of the promises.

I know this is long but allow me to make one more point and I’ll withdraw, I’m sure those interested in this issue have heard quite enough from me!

Continued

 

One other point I would like to address from the young man’s sermon: saying “Scripture should interpret Scripture” sounds right and good, until you consider that you can take a verse of Scripture here and a verse of Scripture there and come up with some just plain, down-right damnable doctrines! Witness, the Rabbi’s built a doctrine, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little, until they developed an elaborate “vision” of just how God’s promises would be fulfilled. But that vision was one of their own imagination, as the Scripture says, and it was that very vision that blinded them, and blinds Rabbinic Jews to this day, to the truth that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of every good thing God ever promised! So, learning from their mistake, I think a better rule would be “Let the Gospel interpret the Scripture,” because after all, the Gospel is the Good News that God has fulfilled everything He has promised to do for those who love him. So if you have a really good and thorough grounding in the most fundamental doctrines of the Gospel, the Gospel becomes a line and a plummet by which you line up every word in the Bible, and all the pieces just fall into place. And when you have "built your house on the Rock," no flood or wind of error can shake it.

But then, I am rather partial to the Gospel, because that's what saved me, and what will see me home.

But bottom line, I don’t agree that the Church has become Israel (the Church is much bigger than just Israel), nor do I believe that Israel has been set aside for the Church (not even temporarily). The Gospel truth is that, under the New Covenant “Israel” is Jews who are circumcised in the heart. So, in New Covenant terms, “Israel” is already part of the Church, a very important part of the Church, being the members of the Church who brought the Gospel to the nations, and the Church to which the redeemed of the nations have been added. This is why the Church at Jerusalem is historically known as the “Mother Church,” because the New Covenant Church began with this small congregation of Jewish men and women, a remnant of the nation, who endured persecution, torture, and death, to bring the world the Gospel.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

"Paul even goes on to show how that some Jews were "fitted for mercy" and how some Jews were "fitted for destruction" (see verses 19-23), speaking of the destruction that was fulfilled against the nation of Israel in the last days of the Old Covenant. Upon some Jews God poured out his mercy, but upon most Jews of that generation God poured out a terrible judgment!"

Your breakdown of Romans 9 is very well done, but this part is a little off I think. Paul is there contrasting the "vesels of wrath" and "vessels of mercy." He says, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Now, the vessels of mercy are shown to be "even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles." I think it's safe to say, based on Paul's contrasting argument here, that since the vessels of mercy were both Jews and Gentiles, then the vessels of wrath are as well. The existence of Gentiles among this group must disprove the idea that the "destruction" they are said to be "fitted for" was what was poured out on the Jews 2,000 years ago. The Gentiles not "afore prepared for glory" weren't subject to that destruction.

I think what Paul means by "fitted for destruction" is that God has left these people in their sins and thus they shall one day be cast into everlasting fire. On the flip side, the vessels of mercy have been afore prepared unto glory, God lifted them out of their sins and saving them, thus they shall one day enter into heaven to be with God forever in glory.

 

Hello RAdam,
I don’t think the Gentiles being included in the vessels of mercy necessarily means Gentiles also have to be included in the vessels of destruction, for several reasons: Paul is talking in these three chapters (Romans 9-11) about the Jews, a rather lengthy teaching in fact. And throughout this long treatise Paul not only talks about the salvation of Israel but throughout this teaching Paul also talks about the Jews who reject salvation and become subject to the judgment and destruction of the Law.

Now let me say however, that I agree that every single person who has ever lived will one day be resurrected to stand before Christ, and those whose names are not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire, which will be the Final or Last Judgment. But I don’t think every reference in the Bible to a judgment is about that judgment. Indeed, there are many judgments and destructions that have occurred since the creation of the world, but the two major ones are the final judgment of the Old Covenant that occurred at the 1st Coming of Christ and the final judgment of the New Covenant which will occur at his 2nd Coming. In the second, the Jew along with the Gentile will stand before Christ and give an account for their own lives, individually, not as a people, the national or corporate judgment of Israel as a nation was the judgment of the Old Covenant, which has already been fulfilled, but the Last Judgment at the 2nd Coming of Christ will be a strictly one-on-one day of facing Jesus Christ.

But in these chapters about Israel Paul keeps hitting on a particular judgment, the judgment decreed in the Law against Israel, which had to be fulfilled before any of the Law could pass away. That judgment only came upon the Jews, it was not a judgment that was or ever will be passed upon the Gentiles because the nations were never under the Law in the first place. Israel alone made a covenant with God at Mt. Sinai that they would keep his Laws and Commandments and therefore only Israel was subject to the judgment of the Law if they failed to do so (although individual gentiles could also enter into that covenant and were then subject to it as well). But the judgments decreed in the Law were solely against one nation, the nation of Israel, if they broke covenant with God, which they did, time and again throughout their history, as we are told from the Hebrew Scriptures themselves.

But the point of this whole three-chapter teaching of Paul is about the salvation as well as the judgment of Israel, about those Jews God counts as Israel, and those Jews who do not count, about those Jews who are the rightful heirs, and those who are not, those Jews who are saved (like Isaac and Jacob of old) and those sons of Abraham who were cast out and disinherited (like Ishmael and Esau of old) as Paul points out in the beginning of this teaching in chapter 9.

Now yes, I agree the Gentiles are included in God’s redemptive plan so therefore Gentiles do become, have become vessels of God’s mercy, absolutely! But Gentiles are not included in the judgment of the Law against Israel so I don’t think they are the vessels fitted for this particular destruction which Paul goes on to teach about in the next verses and chapters.

And I believe this idea is supported by the fact that immediately after Paul speaks of these vessels of mercy and of destruction, he immediately launches into talking about the soon-coming destruction of the nation of Israel (not about the judgment at the end of the world) and he cites Hosea and Isaiah as proof texts:

Romans 9:25 Paul quotes Hosea 2:23
Romans 9:26 Paul quotes Hosea 1:10

Both of the above prophecies deal with the institution of the New Covenant and the final judgment of the Old Covenant and the destruction of the nation of Israel in that judgment. Read the whole first two chapters of Hosea and see if that’s not what Hosea was prophesying, and then notice that Paul is bringing that up in his teaching here on the salvation but also on the judgment of Israel.

And building upon that idea, notice Paul also quotes Isaiah:

Romans 9:27-28 quotes Isaiah 10:22-23 (and notice the difference in wording – it is telling)


Continued . . .

 

. . . Continued

Now here Paul quotes the ancient prophecy about the nation of Israel having grown so large and yet only a small remnant of the entire nation would be saved, and that the destruction the Lord had decreed would be so consuming it would have completely wiped out the Jewish people had the Lord not limited the time it would last. This is a very old prophecy going back to the Law, which is why both Isaiah and Daniel (9:27) refer to the fact that it was “decreed” (see Deuteronomy 28 which discusses this judgment of the Law against the nation of Israel if they ever broke covenant with God. The men of Israel who were actually righteous men were few and far between. The majority of the people repeatedly fell into idolatry and all manner of wickedness, particularly the rulers of the people, those who had been entrusted with the things of God, even at times stoning to death the very prophets God sent to them. Religious authorities always seem to be especially susceptible to the error of self-righteousness, probably because their positions are so often attended by wealth and the trappings of power).

Anyway, Paul then begins to instruct us in what was the downfall of the Jewish people and it was this . . . that they stumbled at that stumbling stone which is Jesus (9:30-10:15 and then in 11:8-10 Paul goes on to explain that what made the Jews stumble over Jesus was that they were blinded by the glory of the things of the Old Covenant, which Paul teaches more fully in 2 Corinthians 3! And then Paul quotes the solemn Messianic Song Psalm 69 which speaks of Jesus being rejected and crucified because of the blindness of those who ate at “the Lord’s table” which is a Biblical term used for the things God provided the Jewish people under the Old Covenant, the very things which was intended for their good became a yoke and burden to them that the majority will never be free of, never know the liberty that is in Christ. Under the New Covenant, “the Lord’s Table” is the body and blood of Christ, which is the ultimate fulfillment of everything it took the whole Law with all its manifold commandments and ordinances to provide even a fleeting shadow of!

Then in 10:16 Paul returns to the subject of the gainsaying Jews who would not believe the Gospel and he again begins to quote the Law and the prophets which foretold this same judgment and destruction

Romans 10:16 quotes Isaiah 53:1
Romans 10:19 quotes Moses Deuteronomy 32:21 (which Paul again quotes a few verses later where Moses prophesied that God would provoke Israel to jealousy by saving the Gentiles)

And many other things about both the salvation of Israel and also about the judgment and destruction of Israel Paul goes on in these three chapters to teach, all the while quoting the Law and the Prophets which foretold it all.

The Dispensational view lifts one line of Romans 11:26-27 (which is the conclusion of a lengthy teaching on the salvation of Israel) out of its context and leaves behind all these other things Paul has already taught as well as the prophecy which that statement is based on (Isaiah 59:20) and gives a completely different spin to it than what either Paul or Isaiah spoke of. Romans 11:26 is predicated on (“And so all Israel shall be saved according to what is written” in Isaiah 59:20 which states: “And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.” Which means that “all Israel” would be saved according to this prophecy, that Christ would come to all those Jews who turn from their transgression.” Nowhere is the idea that a whole generation of Jews would all be saved, but that instead the much more Gospel-compatible idea that “all Israel” is . . . Christian Jews, that saved, redeemed Jewish people who “follow the Lamb,” as the Revelation describes them. Blood bought, born again, washed and redeemed Christian Jews are the Jews God counts as His people Israel. Revolutionary idea, I know, but there it is!

No where in the Bible does it ever say that there will be one particular generation of Jews who will all turn to Christ. In fact, Paul gives a very lengthy discourse here and elsewhere in Scripture which contradicts that very idea, teaching instead that only a remnant of the nation will be saved, while the vast majority, like Israel of old, will die in the wilderness never even having seen the Promised Land.

All in all, I think this teaching of Paul on the salvation and judgment of Israel is what Paul was talking about with the vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath. Nowhere else in these three chapters does Paul speak of the Gentiles or their judgment or cite any prophecies which do. And when you look at the historical events and prophecies which Paul cites to prove his case, as well as the other teachings I referred to, it makes a very strong case that “they are not all Israel who are of Israel, neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they heirs,” but it is those Jews who are in Christ who are counted for the seed.

In conclusion, Christ will come to all those Jews who turn from their transgressions, and He will save them all.


I apologize for the length of this post, but I never know how long I'll have available to engage in these discussions, but I said all that to show why I think Paul was in fact speaking of the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction as a reference to the soon-coming judgment of the Law which would destroy the nation of Israel and bring the Old Covenant to an end. In fact, I think that was the primary subject that Jesus and all the New Testament writers had on their radar when they spoke or wrote of those things which were yet to come, those were the things that were to come upon that very same generation, ergo the "imminency" of these events that are so obvious in their writings.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

I would like to see every Christian look up the below in a search engine and read it.Also the Judah/Jew and Israel are not the same.Please research and read the below it was a speech given by a Jew in 1976.


The Harold Wallace Rosenthal Interview 1976

The Hidden Tyranny

Or go here:

[LINK SNIPPED - I am not going to let a pile of lies and falsehoods set in a sea of hate be linked on the BB]

Jesus bless you all.

Steven.

 

I have reported you, pilgrim2009.

I found your link to be quite appalling fiction and anti-Jewish propaganda.

peace to youraying:

 

I hate no one nor am I anti-semitic.The speech was given by a Jew and he died shortly after for giving it.It cannot be refuted by noone.Believe it or not that is your business dear.

If you only knew what the Talmud Jew thinks about you.Jesus - John the Baptist and St Paul were anti-semitic then.Jesus said they were of their father the devil {John 8:44} and of the church of satan {Rev 2:9-3:9} and Paul said they were enemies of the Cross of Christ {Phil 3:18}.


There is a remnant that shall be saved as the Bible says {Romans 11:5}

Most are Tulmud practicing Crypto Jews.There is a Jewish brother that is a Christian and he exposes his own brethren according to the flesh.Real Jews News, www.realjewnews.com .Talmudic Jews control all of the worlds banking systems and are planning to control the world so they fight for power between Romes Jesuits and cant seem to get no-where.Praise God because the Talmudic Jew doesnt want you to have Jesus nor the NT Bible.Wake-up American Christians its about the end of the road.

I pray for the Jews and every other lost soul.My God is not a racist and he favors noone above the other and my God considers a real Jew one that belongs to Christ by faith.Read Galatians chapter 3 slowly and Romans completely.


God I pray for lost Jews and Gentiles to come to the cross of Christ for salvation in Jesus name Amen.


Steven.

 

First, I'm not your "dear".

Second, the story from the link didn't present it as a "speech", but as a "confidential interview". Somehow, no one but the anti-semitic hate-monger who wrote the piece heard all the propaganda.

It can easily be refuted by anyone with half a brain.

But, if you want to disengage your brain and live in a fantasy world of your own making, knock yourself out.

peace to youraying:

 

I have reported you again, pilgrim2009.

You claim to not be anti-semitic, yet you keep linking to anti-semitic websites.

peace to youraying:

 

Dr Bob I assure you that I mean no harm and I will say one last comment.Henry Ford invested millions of dollars to research the ones claiming to be Biblical ethnic Jews in his work called The International Jew.The very ones claiming to be Jews today are Khazars.No-one can prove they are decended from Judah today since the the very records of the Levitical priesthood was completely destroyed 2000 years ago.And the belief that the house of Israel/Israelites and the House of Judah/Jew are the same people {i.e.Tribe}amazes me.The Bible is clear God is not a racist and what a real Jew is taught in Romans 2:28-29.

Abraham was not a Jew but a of the Chaldee`s/Gentile.Get a strongs and look up the meaning of the words nations and nation to whom the promises were to come upon.These nation and nations refer to Gentiles and the word Jew came about the first time in 2nd Kings 16:6.

DR Bob do you know what the Talmudic Jew thinks of you?

DR Bob do you realize unbelief cut them off from God`s promises? {Romans 11:20}

DR Bob do you know Christians are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise?{Galatians 3:29}

Zionist believe the Jew according to the flesh in dis-obedience still has a right to the land when the promises to the land were conditional not unconditional and God`s promises to them were fulfilled in the days of Joshua {Joshua 21:43-45}

Galatians chapter 3 sets the record straight once and for all along with Rev 2:9-3:9}those out of Christ in dis-obedient un-belief are not Jews.I will let the dead horse lay and pray for their salvation because now is the day of their salvation {2nd Cor 6:2}.

God bless.

Steven.

 

Pilgrim, this isn't a congregating place for bigots.

Please go elsewhere. There is no place for anti-semitism on the BB, or any Christian site, for that matter.

I pray you don't work with kids or teens. We don't need another generation poisoned with the filth of prejudice and bigotry.

 

Zionist have been deceived by Scofieldism and he was an agent of the Anti-Christ system as you will well know soon when you are treated like an animal.Do you realize the Talmudic Jew has deceived you and thinks no more of you than cattle? {i.e.A BEAST}Your not even human to the Talmudic Jew and yet you think they are God`s chosen.Christians are the people of God not an anti-christ Talmudic Jew.Read Galatians chapter 3 along with the book of Romans completely.

Steven.

 

I just dont find in the Bible,where anything is promised to Christ rejectors.I do not find where the land of palistine belongs to Christ rejectors and the killing to take land is as unbiblical as ever.All ofGod`s promises are conditional from the Old Testament through the New.

God bless.

Steven.

 

Mods, please not only get rid of this skinhead, but delete his posts. No telling what google ads will pop up thanks to this guy.

For all we know, he probably wears a WWHD ("What would Hitler do?") bracelet.

 

Pilgrim2009, I do not agree with your stance that either Jews or Evangelical Christians should be seen through the narrow lens of those whose views you have held up as examples. The gentleman whose article you referenced holds a very extreme view (Zionism) that is only held by a very small and radical few of the Jewish people. It no more represents "the Jew" than did David Koresh represent "the Christian." If this man’s views are what you think represent the Jewish people, then you have a very narrow and erroneous view indeed. By the same token, Hal Lindsey also represents an extreme view that, while currently popular again among American Evangelical Christians, is also an extreme view that does not represent all of Christendom.

I believe your view is being tainted by your assumption that these two extreme views represent all of Jewry and all of Chistendom. It is a simple but tragic mistake that many have made and what all extremists have in common, you see the world and the Jews and Christians through the eyes of the most extreme views and opinions, therefore your worldview is seriously skewed in the direction of extremism and you yourself become an extremist.

The Scripture also says that when it comes to the election, the Jews who were enemies of the Gospel for the sake of gentiles, were beloved by God for the sake of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.(Romans 11:28)

I pray the Lord Jesus will open your heart and your mind to explore more fully where “the Jews” fit into God’s plan of Salvation and that you might no longer see them as enemies, but as brothers-in-sin-in-need-of-salvation. Jesus died for the Jews too.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer