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Featured A Fact Sheet on the Greek NT

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by John of Japan, Apr 3, 2019.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I have taken the position that the Hebrew and Greek originals were without error and provided a contextual self-defining pattern that God providentially preserved from being destroyed by copiest or translators. This method of divine preservation was through divinely appointed custodians (Jewish and church administrations) who cherished it and painstakenly produced multiple copies wherein only minor errors occurred and never insomuch that the immediate and overall contextual pattern is ever destroyed.

    This contextual pattern provided by inspired originals is preserved in spite of minor copiest and translator errors as the pattern is conveyed from one language to another and the abundance of hebrew and Greek copies along with studying the immediate and overall contextual pattern provides all that is necessary to fill the holes with the proper available terms.

    This can be illustrated by an afgan. When you look at an afgan there is an observable overall and immediate contextual pattern. Wear and tear may cause minor holes to occur throughout the afgan, however, careful consideration of the overall and immediate pattern provides the necessary information to determine what should fill those holes. If previous multiple copies of this afgan were available this task would be more simplified.

    This overall and immediate self-defining contextual pattern is conveyed through translations into other languages and along with copies of Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, thorough study of the immediate and overall context will provide the necessary insight as to which alternative wording (found in other copies) should be fill the gaps.

    However, even if one has only, for example, the KJV, and has no background in ancient languages, the principle still holds true. There is a preserved overall and immediate self-defining contextual pattern which through careful study in combination with the leadership of the Spirit can determine the proper understanding of any given passage to the extent that no essential doctrine or truth is lost but what you have is indeed the word of God.

    Hence, simply be diligent in studying the overall and immediate context of whatever copy or translation one may have in their possession is all that is necessary as there is a preserved self-defining pattern preserved.
     
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I like what you are saying here, but do you have a direct Scriptural basis for it?
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Jesus said that scripture cannot be "broken". The Greek term (luo) behind this translation can refer to the bandages wrapped around a corpse in a cohesive manner so that they are interwoven so it does not come apart.
     
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Where do you get that meaning? I just checked four lexicons and can't find it. If you are referring to John 11:44, it says "Loose him," not "Loose his bonds." I would prefer the meaning of "destroyed" for John 10:35.
     
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Please note that we are not TR-Only. The students are allowed to choose either Scrivener's TR or the Robinson/Pierpont Byz. Textform. I use the Byz. myself.

    Here is the last point I'll post:

    9. There have been other editions of the TR down through the centuries. The TR that we are using in this class was edited by F. H. A. Scrivener (1813-1891). Rather than go just from the Greek mss, he examined the KJV to determine what readings the translators used in various places. Therefore, his Greek NT is close to that of Beza, but has significant differences from Beza since the KJV translators did not always follow Beza’s Greek NT.
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Both you and I know the term simply means "to loose" but I said it is used or applied to the cohesive bandages wrapped around a corpse.
     
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Okay. I'm wondering where you get your description of the bandages as "interwoven" in a 1st century Jewish burial? I checked Eedersheim and a NT Intro. textbook and can't find that detail (which is not to say it is not true).
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Baur, Arndt and Gingrich has this:

    1. Loose, untie bonds...fetters...or something...similar used to hold something together or to secure it.

    2. set free, loose, untie....Of Lazerus bound in grave clothes....unbind him
     
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Well of course. But it seems to me that your Post #61 is based on the "interwoven" idea. I don't see that in this usage, so I would still go with "destroyed" in John 10:35, which doesn't appear to support your views in said post.
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Ok, but the very principles of historical grammatical exegesis demand the very same thing in essence. In John 10:35 it is perfectly legitimate to translate it as "unbind" which would imply it is bound together in some fashion.
     
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I don't think the context has any implications about scripture being "destroyed" versus being preserved from destruction. The idea seems to me that Jesus is saying this is part and parcel with the rest of scripture and it cannot be separated or untied from the rest, thus, scripture is bound together and if anything about destruction is implied it is the connectivity of all scripture rather than the cessation of scripture.
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Right. So I think my point stands. You translate/interpret your way, and I do my way. So may I suggest that the one verse, capable of differing interpretations, is not enough to hang a doctrine on.
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Honestly, I don't see any contextual basis for "destroyed" at all in other sense except cohesiveness that Psalm 86 has with all other scriptures. However, you are right, a person can believe what they choose to believe as we all have that freedom.
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    On earth, it is our job as believers to preserve it, based on the doctrine of the priesthood of the believers. One way we do that is by textual criticism. - John of Japan

    John, do you really believe that it is "our job" to preserve it as though God could not preserve it apart from us? Sure, we ought to preserve it, but is God dependent upon us for its preservation here on earth? Preserving it in heaven does not help anyone on earth does it?
     
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    One of the usages as BAG says is "used to hold something together". Would not that support the idea of being held together as in a contextual cohesiveness? When Lazerus was "loosed" from his bandages it was not a mere single cut but there were overwrappings designed to hold together? Jesus is saying you cannot cut out this particular text from the rest of scripture as scripture is bound together in a cohesiveness unity. Ok, I am dropping it but I just wanted to express this last idea for consideration.
     
  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Well, the simple statement that "It is our job to preserve Scripture" is important to me, and provable through the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer (and in other ways), but my doctrine of preservation is far more than that. I do believe that God providentially preserves His Word on earth through the mss, and that in the whole they represent a perfect earthly copy. But we don't have that in one place, so as I said above, I deeply appreciate the work of genuine textual critics.

    As for "settled in Heaven," whether or not there is a physical copy of the original mss, preserved there, it goes without saying that what God said in His Word is perfectly preserved in the mind of God.
     
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  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    It would be fun to find somewhere in the papyri the usage of "loose the burial wrappings," but I don't think that usage has been found yet. What John wrote is "loose him."
     
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    But isn't that the direct necessary implication? Loose him from what? It was not the tomb as he already came forth from the tomb. Does not the text say he was "bound hand and foot with graveclothes:"? From here one can go back into Jewish tradition and discover the manner in which a corpse was "bound hand and foot with graveclothes." They were to undo, unbind, unravel the burial wrappings from around him.

    Robertson says they were to loose him from "the various bands" of the wrappings.

    Gill who was very aquainted with the ancient burial customs of the Jews says this:

    bound hand and foot with grave clothes;
    not that his hands were bound together, and much less his hands and feet together, with any bands or lists of cloth; but his whole body, as Nonnus expresses it, was bound with grave clothes from head to foot, according to the manner of the eastern countries, Jews, Egyptians, and others, who used to wrap up their dead in many folds of linen cloth, as infants are wrapped in swaddling bands: and their manner was to let down their arms and hands close by their sides, and wind up altogether from head to foot: so that there was another miracle besides that of raising him from the dead; that in such a situation, in which he could have no natural use of his hands and feet, he should rise up, stand on his feet, walk, and come forth thus bound, out of the cave:

     
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    My point is that luo does not describe whatever it is that one must be loosed from. As I read your position, you are trying to make luo refer to what kind of cloths bound him, rather than just the act of loosing.

    Robertson is a good source, still respected. But again, how were those "various bands" wrapped? You said interwoven. How do we know that? Maybe they spices glued them. The word for graveclothes is keiria and is a hapax legomenon. It does appear in classical Greek as "a bandage" (Liddel and Scott), so I don't discount your interpretation completely, but it's just not proven IMO.
    I'm not fond of Gill as a source. He died about 250 years ago, and seminary taught me someone that long ago is not a good source. In fact, my son objected to my using a textbook for one class that is from 1958. :) And we only have Gill's word for it that he was conversant in ancient burial customs. He doesn't even give a source for things in the quote you give, just "used to." When? Where?
     
    #79 John of Japan, Apr 18, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
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