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A Post Trib Surprise

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ballfan, May 16, 2004.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Interesting but somewhat
    arragant belief. I guess you are free
    to make your own hope-free doctrine.

    Here is a question even a postie aught to
    be able to answer: What is the first
    place (verse or phrase) to which
    "after the tribulation of those days"
    (Matthew 24:29) does NOT apply?

    I say it doesn't apply to Matthew 24:31
    because of the questions asked in Matthew 24:3.

    The gramaratical tool of
    the POLYSENDTON is used by the
    author of Matthew as an outline.
    Interesting, eh? a prophesy using
    a figure of speach!

    [​IMG]
     
  2. ballfan

    ballfan New Member

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    Interesting but somewhat
    arragant belief. I guess you are free
    to make your own hope-free doctrine.

    Here is a question even a postie aught to
    be able to answer: What is the first
    place (verse or phrase) to which
    "after the tribulation of those days"
    (Matthew 24:29) does NOT apply?

    I say it doesn't apply to Matthew 24:31
    because of the questions asked in Matthew 24:3.

    The gramaratical tool of
    the POLYSENDTON is used by the
    author of Matthew as an outline.
    Interesting, eh? a prophesy using
    a figure of speach!

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]I realize you would like to drive a wedge between Matt. 24:30 and Matt. 24:31.

    Still leaves you without a verse saying Jesus returns before the trib and using intrepretation as the foundation for your theory.

    Matthew 24 supports the post trib position with a direct statement from Jesus. And if post trib is then correct then iy means the statement I made about survival in 1 Thessalonians 4 is also correct.

    So your task is quite simple. All you have to do is prove Jesus wrong in Matthew 24:29-31 or to somehow qualify his remarks.
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    I must say again that Ed puts the rapture in Matthew 24, but I do not. I think it is faulty exegesis.

    Jacob, Noah was kept through the 'tribulation'. We will be kept FROM THE TIME OF THE TRIBULATION.
     
  4. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Christ says we will be going thru the Tribulation but like Noah we will be spared the Wrath of God.
     
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Christ said we would have tribulation. That isn't the same thing as THE tribulation. He compared that time as the worst history will ever know. Again, Rev. 3:10 says we will be kept FROM that time, not through it.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Let me try again, only slower.
    I really think you can keep your whole
    eschatology still answer my question.
    What is the first place (place here is a
    verse or a phrase) to which
    "after the tribulation of those days"
    (Matthew 24:29) does NOT apply?

    How about Matthew 26:1 which reverts
    back to about 33AD when Jesus was
    getting ready to celebrate the Passover 33AD
    meal?

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Ballfan: "Still leaves you ...
    using intrepretation as the foundation for your theory."

    Thank you for your compliment. One of the rules of understanding
    scripture is to let scripture interpret scripture.
    I'll pray that you start using the same methodology
    for your understatnding of Eschatology. No way that
    postrilbualtion only rapture fits the other great doctrines.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    (Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.)

    This one verse says keep you from the hour of temptation. This one verse does not say the temptation is the Tribulation.

    How ever we have one Matt 24:29 saying after the tribulation at the sound of the trump Jesus will gather His elect(Rapture after Trumpet) Than we have Thes 1 4:16-17 we find that at the sound of a trump the dead in Christ will rise first and we that are alive will be caught up(Rapture after Trumpet) into the sky with Him. In 1 Corinthains 15:50-52 we find that at the last Trump sound the dead rises first and we that are alive are changed
    I Rev 14:14-16 we find that the seventh trumpet has been blown already and the mark of the beast has already been sent out in the preceeding chapters and in verse 14-16 we find The rapture taking place will Christ sits on a cloud. Than the Wrath of HGod is poured out on the Earth.
     
  9. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Jacob, the hour of testing that comes upon the whole world could be nothing BUT the tribulation. Remember that Christ said it was the most awful thing human history will know. No war has ever been worldwide, at all parts of the world, at all times.

    Further, Matthew 24 does not state that the rapture will take place. It only says that Christ will gather the elect at his coming. That doesn't demand a rapture. That is just your interpretation.
     
  10. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Put the verse together you get Jesus coming in a Cloud at the Sound of the Last Trumpet to gather the dead in Christ first and we who are alive will be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye and will be gathered with Christ in the Sky than the Wrath of God will be poured out all over the world. Unlike the tribulation it does not cover the whole world it is specific some of plage do not touch Christians. only a 1/3 of the water is turned bitter not all.
     
  11. ballfan

    ballfan New Member

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    Scripture can definitely be used in Intrepreting other scripture. Still you need a solid foundation to start from. With eschatology only post trib has that.

    Intrepretations vary. Look at your view of Matthew 24:31 as an example. Foundations should not be variable. They should state exactly the position. Otherwise:

    Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
    Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

    Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
    Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
    Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


    Having a good foundation is a must.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Is the foundation of Jesus, the Christ,
    good enough for you?

    My faith is in Jesus, not in my
    eschalotogical leaning ...

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Jacob, you obviously miss the fact that Christ told them he was going to come and take them back to HEAVEN.

    You have that part conveniently deleted. Sorry, but I will agree with the same order Christ gave.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen Brother Daniel David -- Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  15. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    (Jacob, you obviously miss the fact that Christ told them he was going to come and take them back to HEAVEN.

    You have that part conveniently deleted. Sorry, but I will agree with the same order Christ gave.)

    I did not think I needed to add it I assume you knew when Christ gather His elect He took them to Heaven with them. Sorry I just thought you knew. But again after this happens the Wrath of God is poor out on the Earth this is what God keeps us from
     
  16. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Jacob, please only speak from one side of your mouth.

    If Christ is taking them back to heaven, then that is not the same as the Matthew 24 text. Therefore, the rapture is PRIOR to Matthew 24.
     
  17. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    1Thess. 2:15. Touto gar humin legomen en logo Kuriou, hotihemeis hoi zontes hoi perileipomenoi eis ten parousiantou Kuriou ou-me fthasomen tous koimethentas,
    16. hoti autos ho Kurios en keleusmati, en fone archangeloukai en salpingi Theou, katabesetai ap ouranou kai hoinekroi en Christo anastesontai proton.
    17. Epeitahemeis hoi zontes hoi perileipomenoi hama sun autoisharpagesometha en nefelais eis apantesin tou Kuriou eisaera. Kai houtos pantote sun Kurio esometha.

    The Greek word perileipomenoi is found only twice in the New Testament, in verses 15 & 17 of 1Thess 2. It is a passive perfect participle in the nominative case in the first person plural. Ballfan is correct in saying that “This word means to leave over or remain over with survival as a key element.” James Everett Frame, in his commentary on Paul’s Epistles to the Thessalonians in the ICC series, wrote, “The living are further defined as those who continue to survive until the Parousia.” F.F. Bruce, in his commentary on Paul’s Epistles to the Thessalonians in the WBC series, translates, “we who are alive, who survive until the Lord’s advent.” Ernest Best, in his commentary on Paul’s Epistles to the Thessalonians in the HNTC series, writes, “Does Paul believe that he himself will survive to the Parousia, which the first person plural with the temporal limitation certainly suggests?” A. L. Moore, in his commentary on Paul’s Epistles to the Thessalonians in the NCB series, writes of the word perileipomenoi, “It means ‘to be left over,’ ‘to survive.’” Ronald A. Ward, in his commentary on Paul’s Epistles to the Thessalonians, writes, “No advantage attaches merely to survival.” John Eadie, in his commentary on Paul’s Epistles to the Thessalonians, wrote, “The participle [perileipomenoi] occurs only here and in verse 17 in the New Testament\t—the inclusive preposition signifying “around” and then “over” or “behind.” It is an epithet applied to the water left over after a sacrifice, [Greek quote] (2 Macc. i, 31). Orthryades is called [Greek quote], the only surviving one of the three hundred Spartans. Leon Morris, in his commentary on Paul’s Epistles to the Thessalonians, writes, “Those surviving to that day will have no advantage over the faithful departed, and Paul uses an emphatic expression, “in no wise,” to underline his point.

    As these quotes show, the Greek word perileipomenoi does not necessarily speak of the survival of the Great Tribulation. Dr. Griffin is right that the word is speaking of the survival of life, but that life for the Thessalonian Christians was full of tribulations and there is not the slightest hint here of there being a Great Tribulation after the Parousia. Such a concept was absolutely foreign to Paul’s thinking and writing, and indeed, to the thinking and writing of all of the early Christians.

    Note: The italics and bold type are not mine, but those of the authors quoted.
     
  18. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Daniel David,

    Your statements in this post are absolutely false! The doctrine of Pre-Tribulationism is built upon confusion brought about by false teachings of dispensationalism. Your opinion that the doctrine of Pre-Tribulationism is a Biblical doctrine has been proven by countless scholars to be a wrong opinion. No one, absolutely no one, even pretended to see the doctrine of Pre-Tribulationism anywhere in the Bible until the late 1820’s. The first published mention of a pre-trib rapture was published by J. N. Darby in December, 1830. In January, 1830, J. N. Darby published a work in which he clearly taught the post-trib view. Some scholars have attempted to learn what caused J. N. Darby to change his view in the space of less that one year, and some theories have been published, but no one really knows.

    Several popular Christian writers have quoted, out of context, writers earlier than J. N. Darby to prove that the doctrine of Pre-Tribulationism was written about prior to 1830, but I have personally checked out their references in their original contexts and found them to be gross distortions of what was actually written.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    When Jesus comes to get me (and He will come to get me)
    He will set up His physical Millinnial Kingdom on the
    same 7-year "Day".

    If the Lord tarries, I shall die.
    When the Lord comes,
    He will get me at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    If the Lord tarries not, I shall be raptured
    at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
    Either way, when the Lord comes, He comes to get me.

    He will set up His physical Millinnial Kingdom on the
    same 7-year "Day". Matthew 24:30 says all the peoples of
    the earth will mourn. I won't be mourning when Jesus
    comes to get me, and neither will you, child of God.
    But when Jesus comes to slay the antichrist and the false prophet,
    there will be general mourning.

    As for the story of John Darby, reminds me
    of another story. Back in fical year 1978
    the CIA budget had been cut 23%. But
    studies of Provda, the Russian propaganda
    newspaper blamed the CIA on 41% more stuff.
    Pretty good eh? getting 41% more done on
    23% less!

    That was a metaphor for blaming all
    the pretrib's ills on the poor guy who
    invented the term: "pre-tribulation"
    refering to the pre-tribulation rapture.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Zion north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture.

    [​IMG]
     
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