A Post Trib Surprise

I agree that this is one of the most comforting passages in the Bible. It speaks of our blessed hope—but our blessed hope is not escaping from the Great Tribulation—our blessed hope is the laying aside of our mortal body and the putting on of the new, imperishable body, and being in the eternal presence of Jesus.

This passage says absolutely nothing about a future Great Tribulation. The “wrath” spoken of in verses 9-10 of chapter five has nothing at all to do with the Great Tribulation, but only to do with God’s wrath in the place of eternal punishment. Paul never uses the word salvation in reference to the Great Tribulation, but only in reference to sin and its eternal consequences.


1 Thess. 5:9. For God has not destined us for wrath , but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10. who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. NASB, 1995

 

Craig, no one can disprove Pretrib because it is truth. Liberals are hardly a credible source for anything.

 

The truth is the truth regardless of who said it, whether they be a liberal, a conservative, or God himself! And a false doctrine is a false doctrine regardless of who teaches it.

It is true that virtually no liberal Bible scholars teach the pre-trib doctrine, but that does not make the doctrine any less false. It is also true that only a small minority of conservative Bible scholars teach the pre-trib doctrine, and NONE of them taught it before 1830. Do you believe that the Bible was so very poorly written that no one was able to understand even the important doctrines until 1830?

 

DD,

Please prove me, how do you know Christ teaches pretrib? Do you see anywhere in Matthew chapter 24 - Christ saying He would coming back BEFORE tribulation?

We do not have to wait for the coming "hour of temptation" - 7 years of tribulation period. Church of Philadelphia during John's time in year around 95 A.D. already face their temptations and trials. They did kept Christ's word. Christ did protected them while face them. Throughout many centuries, Christians already face temptations. Many Christians kept Christ's word, and were protect from fell into sin. Today, we are facing temptations anytime. It promises us, IF we keep His Commandment, He would protect us from the temptations. OR.... if we do not keep His commandment, we might fall into sin.

Rev. 3:10 say nothing about 7 years of tribulation period or God's wrath either. It speaks of our times of temptations, as we keep God's Commandment. Rev. 3:10 same with James 1:12 and Rev. 2:10.

Pretrib misinterpreting Rev. 3:10 speak of rapture us from the seven year of tribulation period. Christ does not saying 'hour of temptation' is 7 year of Tribulation period. Christ promises us, He will protect us IF we keep His word, we will be protect while face temptatins. Or, if we do not keep His word, He will not protect us, we might face problems and could fall into sin.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Craig, you should know that we do not judge the worth of a doctrine on when it became popular to believe.

The early church was unquestionably premillenial. They also believed in an imminent return of the Lord. Whether you like it or not, that is the pretribulational position.

Now, Darby is credited with SYSTEMATIZING dispensationalism, but he hardly invented it.

Btw, don't forget that the doctrine of grace alone faith alone in Christ alone nearly dropped off the face of the planet for, oh, a thousand years.

People used your same dried up argument then on that doctrine. Guess what! It is still true.

 

1. When you compare the various sayings of Christ all together, you see that he was not always talking about the same event. In fact, I just did a research paper on Christ and the rapture. I examined the texts on his return and compared them with each other.

2. The rapture ins't anywhere in Matthew 24.

I will deal with your other error after dinner.

 

1. That is because we will already be gone when it happens.

2. Don't you see? You are completely ignoring what Christ said. He said they would be kept from the TIME of the testing. You are saying that they did go through the testing. Do I agree with Christ or dpt?

3. I know.

4. I don't understand this statement.

5. That isn't the issue. Christ referred to a particular time that would be worldwide in its scope. That has NEVER happened.

6. The protection wasn't from sin. It is from the hour of testing. You don't have to rearrange Scripture to make your point. Or do you?

7. Really? You are going through a worldwide testing that the world has never known before? Amazing. You would think something of that magnitude would be easily recognized.

8. Again, it is from the time of testing, not just any testing. Therefore Christ was referring to a particular moment in time.

9. Wrong! That isn't in the text anywhere. Where did you pull that from?

10. It doesn't have to say anything about the 7 years. It already assumes they know the length of it. You would have every verse be an exhaustive thesis on the subject, otherwise it isn't talking about that. That is foolishness. The Bible wasn't written as an encyclopedia. Funny thing about Revelation is that the description of the hour of testing begins in chapter 6.

11. No it doesn't. It refers to the hour of testing that will come upon the whole world. Believers in that day were already experiencing testing. Jesus was talking about something entirely different.

12. Again, the length of the tribulation is already assumed. Every time the Bible speaks of the tribulation, it doesn't have to say that it is 7 years. Good grief.

13. I have already addressed this. This is such an obvious desperate attempt by an amill to completely ignore the specifics of yet another verse.

 

That is not the issue! The issue is that the doctrine was absolutely unknown until the late 1820’s or 1830 and did not appear in print until December of 1830.

That simply is not true! Most of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers seem to have been premillenial in the theology, but certainly not all of them. But again, that is not the issue. None of those who were premillenial in their theology believed in a pre-trib rapture. And not a single premillenial Bible scholar believed in a pre-trib rapture until the late 1820’s or 1830. And since 1830, the very large majority of premillenial Bible scholars have been definitively post-trib in their theology.

This is not true! Not even Paul believed in an imminent return of the Lord. Those who did believe in it were ALL WRONG! Jesus still has not returned, and He will not return today! He will return, but not today!

This is true.

Yes, it did, and it is just as false a doctrine today as it was when it was first proposed to be a Biblical doctrine. This doctrine is directly refuted by James and completely foreign even to Pauline theology.

GARBAGE!

 

Craig, I have no further need to debate you as you can't even get salvation correct. Nice association guys.

 

(Jacob, please only speak from one side of your mouth.

If Christ is taking them back to heaven, then that is not the same as the Matthew 24 text. Therefore, the rapture is PRIOR to Matthew 24.)

Matt 24 gives a little info like at the sound of the trumpet Jesus will gather His elect from the Earth. In the other verse posted we get more info on this action that Jesus does. We find in the other Verses that it is the Last Trumpet, The dead in Christ will rise first, We will meet Christ in the Sky while He is setting on a Cloud after this an Angel thrust his sickle into the Earth and gathers the harvest for the Winepress for the Wrath of God to be poured out on the Earth. So Christians Dead and Alive will betaken from the Earth before the Wrath of God is poured out. There is a span of Time between the 7th Trumpet Rapture to the 1000yr reign of Christ called the Wrath of God after this Christ returns and sets foot on the Earth after the 1000yrs Satan is losed and makes war with Christ thrown into the Lake of Fire New Heaven NEw Earth no seas no sun or moon for Christ will be the Light.

Thou I said it once before it is worth repeating wether you believe in pretrib posttrib or post mill. As long as you have Christ first coming right you do not need to worry about the Second

 

I believe the facts whether I want to believe them or not! Truth is truth!

 

What?? Am I reading this correctly? You're claiming that grace alone, faith alone in Christ alone is a false doctrine?

 

Yes. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith.

Eph. 2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (NASB, 1995)

 

Craig, don't mince words. Do you believe your works contribute to your salvation?

 

I think he just made that clear by referring to James' book.

 

I also use and believe the book of james. I just don't add works to salvation.

 

Don't look at me. Neither do I.

 

Picking up on an earlier part of the thread -"and so shall we ever be with the Lord," from the famed Thessalonian passage: how long? "So," in this manner, as we become when we see Him as He is and are made like Him, "So shall we ever be," not just a thousand years, but ever. Where is any "millenial age" in that? Best - R. Charles Blair - Rom. 8:28

 

R. Charles Blair: //Where is any "millenial age" in that?//

At the beginning of Forever, i.e. the first 1,000 years
of forever will be the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.

 

Please prove me where verse that Christ saying the rapture will be occure BEFORE He gave the lecture on Matthew 24, I mean, how can you prove that Christ saying the rapture will be occur either 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier prior Christ's coming?

You discussed on Matthew 24:

Word, 'rapture' is not find anywhere in the Bible. Rapture means caught up for the purpose of gathering us together equal with the harvest at Christ's coming.

Isn't 'gather together' of Matt 24:31 is the picture of rapture?

None find anywhere in the Bible saying there will be zero saint on the earth after the coming of Christ. 1 Thess 4:16-17 tell us, when Christ comes, we shall be MEET Christ in the air while he descends. And we shall be ever with the Lord, where he goes, we will always follow Chirst where He goes.

But, Bible clearly tell us, when Christ comes, the world shall be gathering together - harvest for the purpose of to judge the world. ALl saints will be present with Christ as He judge the world. None of the saint will be be miss when Christ comes.

Does, Christ saying, 'time of temptation' represents, seven year of tribulation period?

What is the temptation? Do you already experince temptation in your lifetime?

I am sure of what in pretrib's mind of its interpreting on Rev. 3:10 - 'which shall come upon all the WORLD, to try THEM that dwell upon the earth.' they saying, 'world' is not saved people, God shall pour his wrath upon them. Also, they saying, 'to try THEM' means, God shall test on not saved people or unbelievers.

Does what in Christ's mind, that he speaks of 'world'& 'them' is for the unbelievers only?

Look to John 17:15, when Christ prayed to His Father, he asked Father, not to take THEM out of the world, but ask Father to keep THEM from the evil.

Whom of 'them' that Christ asked to His Father? His followers. 'Them' are the believers.

Rev. 3:10b tells us, the time of temptation fall upon the world. That means, every person in the world are facing the temptations daily since Early Church to today.

Christ does not saying, the wrath of God shall pour upon the world of Rev. 3:10b. He speaks of temptations - tests. We are now face temptations over the world today.

How can you are sure that the Early Christians understand 'hour of temptation' speaks of the exactly length will be last like as seven years?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!