A Post Trib Surprise

The concept of faith without works was totally foreign to the Jews of both the Old and the New Testaments. There is no salvation in the Law or works of the Law, for the Law and its works can not make anyone holy. However “faith without works is dead.” And, contrary to the thinking of some Baptists, James was not the only one who expressed that idea, although James found it more necessary than other to come right out and say it. The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote,

Heb. 11:1. Now faith is the assurance of {things} hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2. For by it the men of old gained approval.
3. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
4. By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
5. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
6. And without faith it is impossible to please {Him,} for he who comes to God must believe that He is and {that} He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
7. By faith Noah, being warned {by God} about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8. By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9. By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign {land,} dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
10. for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11. By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
12. Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, {as many descendants} AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.
13. All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14. For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
15. And indeed if they had been thinking of that {country} from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
16. But as it is, they desire a better {country,} that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
17. By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten {son;}
18. {it was he} to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED."
19. He considered that God is able to raise {people} even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.
20. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come.
21. By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, {leaning} on the top of his staff.
22. By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.
23. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
24. By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
25. choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
26. considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
27. By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.
28. By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them.
29. By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though {they were passing} through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.
30. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
31. By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.
32. And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
33. who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed {acts of} righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
34. quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
35. Women received {back} their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
36. and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.
37. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
38. ({men} of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39. And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40. because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Notice throughout this chapter in Hebrews the relationship of faith and works. True faith always includes works—not works of the Law, but works of faith.

James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for {their} body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, {being} by itself.
18. But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26. For just as the body without {the} spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

Wether the word Rapture appears in the Bible do not matter being caught up it the same as being rapture. I still can not believe that argument is being used. It is just like in the KJB were it says to replenish the Earth in 1611 Replenish means to Fill. just because the word is not in the Bible does not mean that the meaning behind it is not there.

 

Jacob W.,


In the past, throughout centuries of the church history. The word, 'rapture' was not popular to them, they do not use that word relate with Christ's coming. They understood, when Christ comes, Christians shall be gathering together to meet Christ in the air. Even, Early Christians understood of Matt 24:31 speaks the same describe as 1 Thess 4:17 about the gathering together. In fact, they believed there will be the only one future coming at the end of the world. None of them hear of two phases of the second coming, it was not yet exist in their time.

Today, many Christians saying rapture is NOT at the second coming. HUH?

Isn't the Bible tell us, that our gathering together shall be AT Christ's coming same time?

No way that they can prove the rapture is seperate from the coming either 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier before Christ's coming find anywhere in the Bible.

The teaching of pretribulationism doctrine is flaw and logically, its have no foundation base upon the Bible.

All pretribbers agree Christ is coming again after the tribulation is the second coming, yet how can they be sure to prove rapture is separate from second coming either 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier in the Bible?

Posttribbers can easily telling to pretribbers about these verses on the timing of the rapture. Actually this debate is endless, it will never solve the debate till Christ comes.

I do not see two phases of the second coming in the Bible, because it does not teaching. I can see there is the only one coming at the end of the world in the Bible. It teaches very clear.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

(Today, many Christians saying rapture is NOT at the second coming. HUH?

Isn't the Bible tell us, that our gathering together shall be AT Christ's coming same time?)

In Rev 14 Christ does not yet return to Earth the Gathering has taken place in Rev 14:16. In Rev Ch 19 Christ returns to the Earth and tosses the Anti Christ and Best into the Lake of Fire and Satan is bound for a 1000yrs while Christ Reigns.

I am not sure how long the Wrath of God last but it is a span of time Between the Gathering of the Elect and the 1000yr reign of Christ.

 

Rev. 14:14-20 describe about the harvest of the earth is same as Matthew 13:39-42,49-50. Yes, Revelation chapter 14 describes Christ's
coming for to gathering all nations and to judge them. It sames with Matthew chapter 13 and 25:31-46.

Revelation chapter 7 describes about the gathering of the earth and 144,000 same with Revelation chapter 14 mentioned 144,000 and the harvest of the world.

Rapture sames as harvest. Rapture is gathering together. Harvest is gathering together.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

I don't know if this has been pointed out yet, but the Church is not mentioned after chapter 3 of Revelation. You will also notice that John is taken up to heaven to be shown the future in Revelation 4:1. Couldn't God(who is omnipotent) have shown John the things hereafter on earth just as easily? Also, Christ mentions Lot in Luke 18:29-30. Psalm 83, the last Psalm penned by Asaph, makes mention of Lot also. You might find it interesting to look at I Chronicles 25 which deals with Asaph and the musicians. Something has to be taken out of the way, in II Tessalonians chapter 2, before the man of sin is revealed .(read very carefully, and look at the context)


But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Luke 18:29-30

But of the times and the seasons, brethren ye have no need that I write unto you. For youselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. I Thessalonians 5:1-4

If there are no times and seasons, because the day of the lord comes as a thief in the night, then how will that day not overtake us as a thief in the night? Unless....

 

Are you saying that only 144,000 jews are raptured? Revelation 7:4-8 I'm not sure if you were using Revelation 14:14-20 as an example for the use of the word harvest or saying that the rapture happens there also? I would definately not want to be a part of the harvest that happens during Revelation 14:14-20.

 

Although the use of the English word “rapture” to connote the catching up of the saints in 1 Thes. 4:17 is of comparatively recent origin, the doctrine that the saints will be caught up is as old as the New Testament itself. The English word rapture comes from the Latin Vulgate where the Greek word harpagesometha is translated rapiemur. The present active indicative of the Greek word harpagesometha is harpazo; the present active indicative of the Latin word rapiemur is rapio. The past participle of rapio is ratura, giving us the English word rapture.

1 Thes. 4:17. Epeitahemeis hoi zontes hoi perileipomenoi hama sun autois harpagesometha en nefelais eis apantesin tou Kuriou eisaera. Kai houtos pantote sun Kurio esometha. (Greek New Testament, transliterated into Roman characters)

1 Thes. 4:17. deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus (Latin Vulgate)

1 Thes. 4:17. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. (NASB, 1995)

1 Thes. 4:17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV, 1769)

HOWEVER, the doctrine of the pre-tribulational rapture IS of recent origin. It arose in the late 1820’s during a time of fascination with Biblical prophesy regarding the end times. Dwight Moody denounced it as a false teaching, but C. I. Scofield accepted it as truth and popularized it. Today it is held to be a foolish and false doctrine by virtually everyone except for many dispensationalists. But many other dispensationalists totally reject it as a serious error that has done serious damage to the body of Christ.

 

Semamiyth,

Apostle John doesn't saying he sees "church" appears up in the heaven between Revelation chapter 4 to 19 either. Pretrib saying church is seen in Revelation chapter 19, as Church is Christ's bride. I agree with them, yet, word, 'church' does not appear in chapter 19. That does not mean church being exclude from chapter 19.

Pretrib saying, church is seen in Revelation chapter 20, that the Church shall reign with Christ. I agree with them. Yet, word, 'church' is not find aywhere in chapter 20. That does not mean church is being exclude from chapter 20.

Pretrib saying church is seen in Revelation chapter 21, that the Church is Christ's bride. Church is New Jerusalem. I agree with them. Yet word, 'church' is not appear anywhere in chapter 21. That does not mean church is being exclude from chapter 21.

Rev. 4:1 speaks of John was being called up by the angel in the vision. That verse do nothing with rapture or Christ's coming. The context of Revelation chapter 4 and 5 talk about John was called up, and showing him to see the activity in the heaven.

'come hither' spoken to John three times - Rev. 4:1; 17:1; and 21:9. These are talk about John was called by the angel, and to show him the things in the vision. These do nothing with rapture or Christ's coming.

Revelation chapter 14 does not saying for the Jews only. We are the respresent of 144,000. Remember, the book of Revelation is fill with symbol and figrative meanings.

Rev. 14:3-4 explain on 144,000 more clear. It says, "the hundred and forty and four thousand, WHICH WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH" - verse 3. But continue read next verse 4 - "These are they which were not defiled with women:" I pause on that first part of verde 4. Pretrib saying all 144,000 are Jewish MALES shall not sex with women. Pretrib often intepreting Revelation on literal things. They misinterpreting theses. Theses are spiritual meanings. 'Women' of Rev. 14:4 are not literal ladies. These are respresent world things as harlots. Revelation chapter 17 explains more clear about the harlots. It speaks of evil world system. That we do not compromising with the world. God commands us that we must come OUT OF HER - Rev. 18:4. Many Christians are compromising with the evil world system.

Rev. 14:4 commands us that we must be virgin and do not compromising with the world. That mean, we must be keep our life clean and pure. Not only speak to the males of 144,000, also, it speak to every individuals both males and females well.

Rev. 14:4b explains more clear: "These are they which FOLLOW the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. these were REDEEMED from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb." It tells us, we are redeemed from the sinners, and we are His firstfruits - 1 Cor. 15:23.

Both Revelation chapter 7 and 14 show the picture of the harvest of the saints is rapture.

Notice Revelation chapter 7 tells us, every twelve tribes of Israel are all exactly same numbered - 12,000. These are symbol numbers, not literal numbers. These numbers are represent completion and perfection.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Quote from DeafPosttrib

The 144,000 in 14 are the same in chapter 7. They are a 144,000 jews that have be set apart. Being the Firstfruits. Yes, these people are redeemed.

Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. Rev. 7:3

AND I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Rev. 14:1

These are the first fruits of Isreal for that time. Deuteronomy 26:1-10

 

Um, do you still believe the world is flat? You know, that is a relatively recent idea also. I wonder about its truth though. Hmmmm.

You see, as I have already instructed you, it is the systematic aspect of dispensationalism that is recent. Premillenialism and immenence were embraced by the fathers.

Sorry to rain, errrgggg, reign on your parade, but you really need to stop making stuff up.

Oh yeah, dispensationalism is such a ridiculous idea that the ETS recently had a dispensational president.

 

CraigByTheSea: "" ... the doctrine of the pre-tribulation
rapture IS of recent origin."

Interesting historic revisionism
How come i prove the pre-tribulation rapture using the
New Testament written totally in the period 33-96AD?

Remember in you answer to my question to discuss the
miracle of how John Darby in the late 1830s got on his
time machine and visited the King James Version translators
prior to 1611 and convinced them to insert "falling away"
which can mean "rapture" instead of the common
English word "apostasy" available to them at that time.
I'm talking 2 Thessalonains 2:3 here.

Remember in your answer to my question to discuss how
John Darby when back in time and talked the translators
of six English versions prior to 1611 have some form
of "departure" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. That "departure"
is like Christians departing this earth to go to
heaven when Jesus shows up to take us away from this
earth about to fall into the worse period of judgement(s)
and terror in the world ever before or after (Matthew 24:21).

 

Hi, Danny David!

Your posts make me very curious as to what grade you are in and how old you are. I know that many message boards do not allow persons under the age of 13 to post messages, so I am going to guess that you are either 13 or 14 . Believe it or not, back in the days before Fred Flintstone, I was only 13 or 14. Back in those days I was not a Christian even though a year or two earlier I prayed and asked Jesus to save me. I know that I was not a Christian because I was very selfish and didn’t love anyone at all.

Danny, have you ever really prayed from your heart and asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins and to come into your life and be your Lord and your Savior? When I finally prayed that prayer from my heart and really meant it, Jesus came into my life and changed me so radically that I stood there in utter amazement! As the song says, “I didn’t believe it could happen till it happened to me.”

I addressed my beliefs about the shape of the world some time back in a different thread.

I have never made the claim that dispensationalism is of recent origin. It may nor may not be, I have never studied the history of dispensationalism as a body of doctrines. The doctrine of pre-tribulationalism, however, is of recent origin, just as I have written.

I never did much care for standing out in the rain watching parades. I can’t blame you one bit!

I am surprised that you think that dispensationalism is a ridiculous idea . C. I. Scofield was a dispensationalist and he wasn’t totally ridiculous. As a matter of fact, my first study Bible was a Scofield Bible—and I still have it and even use it occasionally.

Don’t tell anybody this, but back in the days when the average man thought that wheels should be square instead of round in order to save wear and tear on brakes shoes, I was a pre-tribulationalist . That is the doctrine that my pastor taught, but one night studying my Bible, I saw that it was a false doctrine . And guess which study Bible I was using that night—that’s right, you guessed it, my Scofield Bible . I read all of Scofield’s proof texts and saw that they didn’t prove anything except that Scofield was confused . I prayed that night, earnestly from my heart, that God would teach me the truth about the rapture, and the Holy Spirit began taking me from Scripture to Scripture and opened my eyes so that I was able to see the truth .

But the truth scared me, mostly because my church taught pre-tribulationalism and my confidence in my pastor and my church began to rapidly evaporate. So I prayed some more, and the Holy Spirit reminded me that I had a book that was an analysis of the statement of faith of my denomination. I picked up the book and read the chapter about the Second Coming of Christ and it didn’t say one word about the Great Tribulation. And then I noticed an appendix in the back of the book. The appendix was about the Great Tribulation and the time of the rapture in reference to it. I read it and it said that some pastors in my denomination believe in a post-tribulational rapture, but that the denomination encourages their pastors to preach the pre-tribulational rapture.

Danny, that greatly encouraged me, because I saw that God had shown others in my denomination the same things that he had shown me. But I became very curious as to why some other people were so confused, and as to where the pre-trib doctrine came from. That was the beginning of my study of the history of the interpretation of the New Testament. And that took me into a study of Greek and Hebrew and New Testament exegesis. And that took me into a study of translation theory.

Danny, Jesus loves you and wants you to know the truth about the rapture. If you will humble yourself before God and ask Him from your heart to teach the truth, and allow Him to do so, He will. I don’t expect you to take my word for it, and I don’t want you to. I want for you to allow the Holy Spirit to teach you the truth, and to teach you the truth so that you KNOW that it is truth.

 

Ed,

The English word “apostasy” comes from the Greek word apostasia, the very word that Paul used in 2Thes. 2:3,

2 Thes 2:1. Erotomen de humas, adelfoi, huper tes parousiastou Kuriou hemon Iesou Christou kai hemonepisunagoges ep auton
2. eis to me tacheossaleuthenai humas apo tou nos mede throeisthai, metedia pneumatos mete dia logou mete di epistoles hos dihemon, hos hoti enesteken he hemera tou Kuriou,
3. me-tis humas exapatese kata medena tropon. Hotiean-me elthe he apostasia proton kai apokalufthe hoanthropos tes anomias, ho huios tes apoleias,
4. ho antikeimenos kai huperairomenos epi panta legomenonTheon e sebasma, hoste auton eis ton naon tou Theou kathisai apodeiknunta heauton hoti estin Theos.
5. Ou mnemoneuete hoti eti on pros humas tautaelegon humin?
6. Kai nun to katechon oidate eis toapokalufthenai auton en to heautou kairo.
7. To garmusterion ede energeitai tes anomias, monon hokatechon arti heos ek mesou genetai.
8. Kai toteapokalufthesetai ho anomos, hon ho Kurios Iesous anelei to pneumati tou stomatos autou kai katargeseite epifaneia tes parousias autou,
9. hou estin heparousia kat energeian tou Satana en pase dunamei kaisemeiois kai terasin pseudous
10. kai en pase apateadikias tois apollumenois, anth hon ten agapen tesaletheias ouk edexanto eis to sothenai autous.
11. Kaidia touto pempei autois ho Theos energeian planes eisto pisteusai autous to pseudei,
12. hina krithosinpantes hoi me pisteusantes te aletheia allaeudokesantes te adikia.
13. Hemeis de ofeilomen eucharistein to Theopantote peri humon, adelfoi egapemenoi hupo Kuriou,hoti heilato humas ho Theos aparchen eis soterian enhagiasmo pneumatos kai pistei aletheias,

The NASB, 1995, gives us a more literal translation here than the KJV,

3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

The fact is that 2 Thes. 2:3 expressly says that the rapture will not occur until after the apostasia. Anyone who believes that the Great Apostasy is the rapture of the Church has some missing screws. The Great Apostasy occurs during the Great Tribulation! Therefore the rapture of the church, according to the Bible, can NOT occur before the Great Tribulatlion. There are at least 101 screw-missing interpretations of 2 Thes. 2:3, but yours has the most missing screws.

One of the hazards of reading only translations of a work, rather than the original work, is that there are going to be some screws missing. Therefore, even in rather literal translations like the KJV and the NASB, there are some missing screws, but not enough of them are missing to justify such a ridiculous interpretation as you are apparently proposing.

 

Anyone who believes that departing from the faith (Greek = apostasia) means the same thing as “departing this earth to go to heaven” has some extremely serious problems with their theology. (Do you perhaps read a lot of comic book?) (Does anybody know where I can find Baptist message board?)

 

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 10 Jan 2004;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised before
the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Ed,

2 Thes. 2:3 explicitly tells us that the rapture will not take place until after the Great Apostasy which the Bible says will takes place DURING the Great Tribulation. The Bible does not contradict itself, so your interpretation of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, etc., has to be very wrong. There is no other possibility. The rapture will not occur before the Great Tribulation. If you continue to argue, you will not be just arguing with me—you will be arguing with the Bible against God!

 

CraigByTheSea: "The English word “apostasy” comes from the Greek word apostasia, the very word that Paul used in 2Thes. 2:3,"

I know that.
You know that.
Pasotr Daniel David, MDiv, knows that.
The 48 (should have been 50) trasnslators
of the KJV knew that. But they put
in "falling away". Why?

Ed, waiting, praying, watching for the
Call of Jesus to come so I can
FALL OFF this ol' world and into the
Hands of Jesus. Amen?

 

Ed,

You can play with the words “falling away” all that you want to, but that does not change the fact that the translators of the King James Version were translating the Greek word apostasia, and that the Greek word apostasia in the New Testament means to fall away from the faith, that is, to commit apostasy. Compare Acts 21:21,

21. Katechethesan de peri sou hotiapostasian didaskeis apo Mouseos tous kata ta ethnepantas Ioudaious legon me peritemnein autous ta teknamede tois ethesin peripatein.

21. "but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. KJV (literally to fall away from, to apostatize from Moses)

Your argument is so foolish that it casts a dark shadow over every Baptist and everything that we stand for. You owe all of us an apology.

Albert Barnes wrote,

2Th 2:3 -
Let no man deceive you by any means - That is, respecting the coming of the Lord Jesus. This implies that there were then attempts to deceive, and that it was of great importance for Christians to be on their guard. The result has shown that there is almost no subject on which caution is more proper, and on which men are more liable to delusion. The means then resorted to for deception appear from the previous verse to have been either an appeal to a pretended verbal message from the apostle, or a pretended letter from him. The means now, consist of a claim to uncommon wisdom in the interpretation of obscure prophecies of the Scriptures. The necessity for the caution here given has not ceased.

For that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first - Until an apostasy (αποστασία apostasia) shall have occurred - the great apostasy. There is scarcely any passage of the New Testament which has given occasion to greater diversity of opinion than this. Though the reference seems to be plain, and there is scarcely any prophecy of the Bible apparently more obvious and easy in its general interpretation; yet it is proper to mention some of the opinions which have been entertained of it.

Some have referred it to a great apostasy from the Christian church, particularly on account of persecution, which would occur before the destruction of Jerusalem. The “coming of the Lord” they suppose refers to the destruction of the holy city, and according to this, the meaning is, that there would be a great apostasy before that event would take place. Of this opinion was Vitringa, who refers the “apostasy” to a great defection from the faith which took place between the time of Nero and Trajan.

Whitby also refers it to an event which was to take place before the destruction of Jerusalem, and supposes that the apostasy would consist in a return from the Christian to the Jewish faith by multitudes of professed converts. The “man of sin,” according to him, means the Jewish nation, so characterized on account of its eminent wickedness.

Hammond explains the apostasy by the defection to the Gnostics, by the arts of Simon Magus, whom he supposes to be the man of sin, and by the “day of the Lord” he also understands the destruction of Jerusalem.

Grotius takes Caius Caesar or Caligula, to be the man of sin, and by the apostasy he understands his abominable wickedness. In the beginning of his government, he says, his plans of iniquity were concealed, and the hopes of all were excited in regard to his reign; but his secret iniquity was subsequently “revealed,” and his true character understood.

Wetstein understands by the “man of sin,” that it referred to Titus and the Flavian house. He says that he does not understand it of the Roman Pontiff, who “is not one such as the demonstrative pronoun thrice repeated designates, and who neither sits in the temple of God, nor calls himself God, nor Caius, nor Simon Gioriae, nor any Jewish impostor, nor Simon Magus.”

Koppe refers it to the King mentioned in Dan_11:36. According to him, the reference is to a great apostasy of the Jews from the worship of God, and the “man of sin” is the Jewish people.

Others have supposed that the reference is to Muhammed, and that the main characteristics of the prophecy may be found in him.

Of the Papists, a part affirm that the apostasy is the falling away from Rome in the time of the Reformation, but the greater portion suppose that the allusion is to Antichrist, who, they say, will appear in the world before the great day of judgment, to combat religion and the saints. See these opinions stated at length, and examined, in Dr. Newton on the Prophecies, Dissertation xxii.

Some more recent expositors have referred it to Napoleon Bonaparte, and some (as Oldshausen) suppose that it refers to some one who has not yet appeared, in whom all the characteristics here specified will be found united.

Most Protestant commentators have referred it to the great apostasy under the papacy, and, by the “man of sin,” they suppose there is allusion to the Roman Pontiff, the Pope. It is evident that we are in better circumstances to understand the passage than those were who immediately succeeded the apostles.

Eighteen hundred years have passed (written circa 1880’s) away since the Epistle was written, and the “day of the Lord” has not yet come, and we have an opportunity of inquiring, whether in all that long tract of time any one man can be found, or any series of men have arisen, to whom the description here given is applicable. If so, it is in accordance with all the proper rules of interpreting prophecy, to make such an application. If it is fairly applicable to the papacy, and cannot be applied in its great features to anything else, it is proper to regard it as having such an original reference. Happily, the expressions which are used by the apostle are, in themselves, not difficult of interpretation, and all that the expositor has to do is, to ascertain whether in any one great apostasy all the things here mentioned have occurred. If so, it is fair to apply the prophecy to such an event; if not so, we must wait still for its fulfillment.

The word rendered “falling away” (αποστασία apostasia, apostasy), is of so general a character, that it may be applied to any departure from the faith as it was received in the time of the apostles. It occurs in the New Testament only here and in Act_21:21, where it is rendered “to forsake” - “thou teachest all the Jews which are among us to forsake Moses” - apostasy from Moses - αποστασίαν απὸ Μωυσέως apostasian apo Mōuseōs. The word means a departing from, or a defection; see the verb used in 1Ti_4:1, “Some shall depart from the faith” - ἀποστήσονται apostēsontai; compare the notes on that passage; see also Heb_3:12; Luk_8:13; Act_5:37. The reference here is evidently to some general falling away, or to some great religious apostasy that was to occur, and which would be under one head, leader, or dynasty, and which would involve many in the same departure from the faith, and in the same destruction. The use of the article here, “the apostasy” (Greek), Erasmus remarks, “signifies that great and before-predicted apostasy.” It is evidently emphatic, showing that there had been a reference to this before, or that they understood well that there was to be such an apostasy. Paul says 2Th_2:5, that when he was with them, he had told them of these things. The writers in the New Testament often speak of such a defection under the name of Antichrist; see Rev_13:14; 1Jo_2:18, 1Jo_2:22; 1Jo_4:3; 2Jo_1:7.