A Post Trib Surprise

You can balk all you want too.
The evidence is: the King James Version
translators put "falling away" in
2 Thessalonians 2:3 instead of "apostasy".
Again, why? the 48 translators knew the
word "apostasy" in the English.

And when Jesus comes to get me,
i'm going to fall away from this ol'
earth right into the hands of Jesus. Amen!

 

2Th 2:3

(ALT) Let no one deceive you* by any means, because [that Day will not come] unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction [or, the one destined to be lost],

(CEV) But don't be fooled! People will rebel against God. Then before the Lord returns, the wicked one who is doomed to be destroyed will appear.

(Darby) Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

(DRB) Let no man deceive you by any means: for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

(ESV) Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

(GNB) Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until the final Rebellion takes place and the Wicked One appears, who is destined to hell.

(GW) Don't let anyone deceive you about this in any way. That day cannot come unless a revolt takes place first, and the man of sin, the man of destruction, is revealed.

(ISV) Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day cannot come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.

(LBLA) Que nadie os engañe en ninguna manera, porque no vendrá sin que primero venga la apostasía y sea revelado el hombre de pecado, el hijo de perdición,

(MSG) Don't fall for any line like that. Before that day comes, a couple of things have to happen. First, the Apostasy. Second, the debut of the Anarchist, a real dog of Satan.

(WNT) Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,

-- Living Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don't be carried away and deceived regardless of what they say.For that day will not come until two things happen: first, there will be a time of great rebellion against God, and then the man of rebellion will come--the son of hell.

-- Revised Standard
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,

-- Transliterated, Unaccented
2 Thessalonians 2:3 me-tis humas exapatese kata medena tropon. Hotiean-me elthe he apostasia proton kai apokalufthe hoanthropos tes anomias,{*} ho huios tes apoleias,

-- New American Standard
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for {it will not come} unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Never let anyone deceive you in any way.
It cannot happen until the Great Revolt has taken place and there has appeared the wicked One, the lost One,

-- New American with Apocrypha
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition,

-- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one {Gk [the man of lawlessness]; other ancient authorities read [the man of sin]} is revealed, the one destined for destruction. {Gk [the son of destruction]}

-- Weymouth's New Testament
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,

-- New Living Translation
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don't be fooled by what they say.
For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed-the one who brings destruction.*

-- Reina Valera Actualizada
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Nadie os engañe de ninguna manera; porque esto no sucederá sin que venga primero la apostasía y se manifieste el hombre de iniquidad, el hijo de perdición.

-- International Standard Version
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day cannot come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.

-- William's NewTestament
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Do not let anybody at all deceive you about this, because that cannot take place<b> until the great revolt<c> occurs and the representative of lawlessness is uncovered, the one who is doomed to destruction,

-- Montgomery New Testament
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means. For it will not come until after the Great Apostasy, and the revealing of the Man of Sin, the son of perdition, the adversary,

 

Why are we debating 2 Thes 2:3? That has nothing to do with the rapture. It has to do with a great apostacy that will take place prior to the rise of antichrist.

 

DD,

You are correct. Yet, the context of 2 Thess 2:1-3 did discuss about the timing of Christ's coming. 2 Thess 2:3 tells us DAY shall NOT come (our gathering together/day of Christ of verse 1 & 2) till we must see falling away(apostasy) first and then we shall face the Antichrist revealed. Paul explained it very clear. We accept and believe what 2 Thess 2:1-3 saying so.

Every Dictionaries and Greek translations even different versions do not agree with the idea meaning of rapture of 2 Thess 2:3. None of them saying that it is rapture. We knoe that. Even, word, 'departure' is not the definition for rapture. Departure means something is leave or forsaking. Dr. Schuyler English said, 'departure' means the departure of the saints is rapture. Many scholars and pastors agree with him. I rather follow what Greek saying than Dr. English saying. Many Christians are already depart from their faith, truth (1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:1--7 & 4:3-4).

Ed,

If suppose you saying falling away is rapture, then tell me what 'day shall not come' talking about?

Your intepreting 'falling away' is rapture does not support verse 3 because of the grammar. You must understand what the sentence or grammar of verse 3 talking about.

2 Thess 2:1-3 is very clear telling us, our gathering together/day of Christ shall NOT come till we shall see apostasy first and the revealed of Antichrist.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

DPT: //If suppose you saying falling away is rapture, then tell
me what 'day shall not come' talking about? //

Day of the Lord, see 2 Peter 3:10.
"Day of Christ", see 2 Thess 2:2 (Day of the Lord in some
Bible Source manuscripts; "Day of Christ" in others.

Day of the Lord in the KJV1769:


Isa 2:12 (KJV1769):
For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isa 13:6 (KJV1769):
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isa 13:9 (KJV1769):
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isa 34:8 (KJV1769):
For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Jer 46:10 (KJV1769):
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

La 2:22 (KJV1769):
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.

Eze 13:5 (KJV1769):
Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

Eze 30:3 (KJV1769):
For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

Joe 1:15 (KJV1769):
Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joe 2:1 (KJV1769):
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joe 2:11 (KJV1769):
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joe 2:31 (KJV1769):
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joe 3:14 (KJV1769):
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Am 5:18 (KJV1769):
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Am 5:20 (KJV1769):
Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Ob 1:15 (KJV1769):
For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

Zep 1:7 (KJV1769):
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

Zep 1:8 (KJV1769):
And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.

Zep 1:14 (KJV1769):
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

Zep 1:18 (KJV1769):
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Zep 2:2 (KJV1769):
Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.

Zep 2:3 (KJV1769):
Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Zec 14:1 (KJV1769):
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Mal 4:5 (KJV1769):
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Ac 2:20 (KJV1769):
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

1Co 5:5 (KJV1769):
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2Co 1:14 (KJV1769):
As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Th 5:2 (KJV1769):
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pe 3:10 (KJV1769):
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


IMHO the "Day of the Lord" is
that day = opportune time, that God
again enters in the affiars of mankind. Mankind has never proven himself
capable of ruling himself or others. Jesus will rule with a rod of iron
the 1,000 years of the Millinnium.
His interferrence will begin at the pretribulation rapture and
extend to the day when the earth is destoryed by fire
and the new earth and the new heavens are created.

YOu do NOT want to be here when the day
of the Lord comes. The day of the Lord
is for the destruction of the evil,
and the Lord's own will NOT be there.
They escape via the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection. Amen!

 

"Day of Christ" in the KJV1769:

Php 1:10 (KJV1769):
That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

Php 2:16 (KJV1769):
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

2Th 2:2 (KJV1769):
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Evidently "Day of Christ" is used in the KJV as a kinder,
milder day for which the Saints do long. The day of the Rapture/Resurrection
is such a day.

 

That is absolutely false. 2 Thes. 2:3 expressly says that the rapture will not occur until after the great apostasy and the rise of the antichrist.

1. Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2. that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. (NASB, 1995)

Every Bible expositor, Bible scholar, and Bible exegete prior to 1830 who wrote on 2 Thes. 2:3 taught that the rapture will not occur until after the great apostasy and the rise of the antichrist, as did, of course, the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers. I have many exegetical commentaries on 2 Thessalonians and they ALL agree that 2Thes. 2:3 teaches that the rapture will not occur until after the great apostasy and the rise of the antichrist. I have never seen a published, exegetical commentary on the Greek text of 2 Thessalonians that teaches a pre-trib rapture. The doctrine is so foolish, so absurd, and so ridiculous that none of them even bother to refute the pre-trib rapture theory. They know that it is nothing but nonsense and they don’t even mention it.

To teach that the entire body of Christ was so deceived, so foolish, and so swept up into doctrinal error that not a single Christian understood 2 Thessalonians for 1800 years makes a mockery, not only of the body of Christ, but of the founder and head of that body, the Lord Jesus Himself! The doctrine of pre-tribulationalism is a foolish, absurd, ridiculous, and blasphemous doctrine! If it were not, somebody, somebody somewhere, would have seen it in the Bible before the late 1820’s, but there is not the slightest shred of evidence that any one did. And as for the correct doctrine, the post-tribulational doctrine, thousands upon thousands of Christians of every conceivable denomination have seen it in the Bible from the very beginning of the Church and have continued to see in the Bible and to write about in literally thousands upon thousands of published works.

God is not an illiterate fool who wrote a book that could not be understood for 1800 years! God gave us a well written book that is easy to understand unless you have a personal agenda that blinds you to the truth of God’s Word.

And not only does 2 Thessalonians expressly teach that the rapture will not occur until after the great apostasy and the rise of the antichrist, but so does 1 Corinthians 15:51-52,

51. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52. in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (NASB, 1995)

Paul wrote here so very clearly that the rapture will take place and that we will be changed at the sounding of the last trumpet. Count them, one, two, three, four, five, six, and seven!

Rev. 11:15. Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." (NASB, 1995)

The seventh trumpet is blown at the very end of the Great Tribulation! How much more clear could it be? The rapture will NOT occur until the end of the Great Tribulation in which the Great Apostasy occurs and the antichrist if manifested. The Bible says so and I believe it.

 

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 646
Original Word: ajpostasiva
Transliterated Word: apostasia
Definition: a falling away, defection, apostasy

The only other time "ajpostasiva" is used is in Acts 21:21 - And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Rapture won't work in this verse in Acts either.

I can honestly say that you are the first person that I have ever heard say that "falling away" in 2 Thessalonains 2:3 means "rapture". I think this is as Daniel David says, "using a wrench on a verse".

 

Amen! Amen! Amen!

 

Craigbythesea: "

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why are we debating 2 Thes 2:3? That has nothing to do with
the rapture. It has to do with a great apostacy that will
take place prior to the rise of antichrist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Craigbythesea: "That is absolutely false. 2 Thes. 2:3 expressly
says that the rapture will not occur until after the great apostasy
and the rise of the antichrist."

This is confusing. The statement you quote says the same thing you say.
Yet you say "That is absolutely false".

 

Ed,

Both 'day of Christ', and 'day of the Lord' are synonymous.

Most pretribbers saying, both are different events. They believe 'day of Christ' speaks of rapture before trib, 'day of the Lord' speaks of tribulation, second coming, and millennial kingdom.

No way, that they can stretch day of the Lord into 1007 years. None find anywhere in the Bible teaching day of the Lord stretch into 1007 years. Bible teaches us the day of the Lord is about the day that the Lord shall JUDGE people.

Both 'day of Christ' & 'day of the Lord' are same meaning.

'Day of Christ' means, the coming of Christ. 'Day of the Lord' means, the coming of the Lord.

In fact, Jesus Christ IS the Lord. Christ is the deity of God.

2 Peter 1:16-"when we made know unto you the power and coming of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty." Jesus IS THE Lord.

2 peter 3:12-"Looking for(same with Titus 2:13) and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

Jesus Christ IS God.

'Day of Christ' of 2 Thess 2:3 is the only one version find in King James Version. Also, NKJV too. Nearly every versions of 2 Thess 2:3 saying, 'day of the Lord'. I know why, because most of pretribbers saying, 'day of Christ' of KJV is mistranslation, it should be correct saying 'day of the Lord'. 5 years ago, I listened to the professor of bible college, he said, on 2 Thess 2:3 - "Let not your mind be shaken, rumours from any person, epistles, from any apostles, from any spirit, etc. saying the TRIBULATION already arrived. He used word, 'tribulation' for 2 Thess 2:2. I graduated from that college, that college requires KJV to teaching in the class, and in the chapel. I was no doubt, that professor used word, 'tribulation' of 2 Thess 2:2, because he uses other version, not KJV. Because KJV is the only one version saying, 'day of Christ' of 2 Thess. 2:2. In fact, he learned from bible college many years ago, that the professors teach, 'day of Christ' of 2Thess. 2:2 is mistranslation.

I rather use KJV than any versions, because KJV was the original English version(by the way, I am NOT KJVO!)For over 250 years since after Authorized Version was printed, Christians understood 'day of Christ' speaks of Christ's coming of 2 Thess 2:2 in KJV. Till in year from 1881-1885, the translators of RSV removed 'day of Christ' from 2 Thess 2:2, and changed it to 'day of the Lord'. I strongly suspect and know why what they were doing. The reason they removed 'day of Christ' from 2 Thess 2:2, because of 1878 Nigara Bible Conference caused everything changed. When few evangelists and pastors, even no doubt, some professors went to that conference, they listened new doctrine of pretribulationism doctrine, they loved it. That how pretribulationism doctrine wqas introduce to America in the early 1880's. I believe the translation of RSV was the result come from 1878 Nigrara Conference.

In fact, most pretrib pastors are AWARE of 'day of Christ' of 2 Thess 2:2 speak of Christ's coming. Instead, they just twist and interpreting verse 2 into tribulation from Christ's coming, cause people into confusion or misuderstanding. For the purpose, they want people to be satisfy and comfort.

2 Tim. 4:3 tells us, in the last days, many will turn away from the truth, and having itching ears. It means, they do NOT like to listen hot preachings, or negative things, or sound doctrines. They love to listen positive things, and soft preaching. Benny Hinn is a perfect example of 2 Tim. 4:3-4.

In fact, MOST Christiansm in America, LOVE pretribulationism more than postrib, because of comfort and positive doctrine as "escape from the coming persecution".

I rather follow what the Bible saying than listen what any men saying - Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

NetPublicist: //I can honestly say that you are the first person
that I have ever heard say that "falling away" in
2 Thessalonains 2:3 means "rapture".//

Thank you for your kind compliment.
Obviously Brother NetPublicist is NOT as well read as
Brother Craigbythesea who has read:

1. "Every Bible expositor, Bible scholar, and Bible exegete prior to 1830 who wrote on 2 Thes. 2:3 taught that the rapture will not occur until after the great apostasy and the rise of the antichrist, as did, of course, the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers."

2. "I have many exegetical commentaries on 2 Thessalonians and they
ALL agree that 2Thes. 2:3 teaches that the rapture will not occur until
after the great apostasy and the rise of the antichrist."

3. "I have never seen a published, exegetical commentary on
the Greek text of 2 Thessalonians that teaches a pre-trib rapture."

I do have a question for all:
How do you measure when the apostasy is strong enough for
the antichrist to be revealed?
I know with the pretribualtion rapture/resurrection that
the whole world will know WITHOUT A DOUBT that the time has
broken from one era to the next. How can we tell when the
apostasy gets strong enough to cause the rise of antichrist?

So i have a sure sign that the Tribulation period judgements/wraths
have started: the pretribualtion rapture/resurrection of
as many as 6,000 Million people (similar to the current population
of the earth)

- Jumping up, hoping one day
Jesus will catch me in the rapture.

 

DPT: //Both 'day of Christ',
and 'day of the Lord' are synonymous//

I have shown they are different
and how they are different.
You say they are the same. Tell us
how they are the same. Thank you.

 

DPT: //Till in year from 1881-1885, the translators of RSV removed 'day of Christ' from 2 Thess 2:2, and changed it to 'day of the Lord'. I strongly suspect and know why what they were doing.//

Actually your statement is incorrect.
There is a Greek source text variance
here. Some Greek sources say: "day of the Lord"
and some say "day of Christ".

Of course, Christ is Lord, so it makes no
difference to me.

 

Your quotes are proving what I said, and go against your "falling away" means rapture theory.

I agree with this, "falling away" = apostasy NOT rapture.

I agree with this, "falling away" = apostasy NOT rapture.

 

Craigbythesea: "Paul wrote here so very clearly that the rapture
will take place and that we will be changed at the sounding
of the last trumpet. Count them, one, two, three, four, five,
six, and seven!"

Ah ha, that is where you get your error that causes
hope to fail. The LAST TRUMPET of
Revelation is the LAST TRUMPET of 1 Cor. 15:51-52 - that
you presume.

Let me give you some quick information you might not know.
Each year on the Feast of Trumpets in all participating synagogues, these trumpets are
blown in this sequence:

1. the first trumpet
2. the last trumpet
3. the Great Schofar (Ram's horn)

The "last trumpet" (your term, the Bible
says "seventh Trumpet") of Revelation
is the last of seven. The last tgrumpet of 1 Cor 15:51-52
is the last trumpet of the Church Age.

 

Craigbythesea: "To teach that the entire body of Christ
was so deceived, so foolish, and so swept up into doctrinal error
that not a single Christian understood 2 Thessalonians for 1800 years
makes a mockery, not only of the body of Christ, but
of the founder and head of that body, the Lord Jesus Himself!"

Amen, Brother Craigbythesea -- Preach it!
We note who mentioned this first in this topic:
Brother Craigbythesea.

 

Just out of curiosity, are you people who are not pretrib so ignorant of church history to say that no one believed the pretrib position because you haven't found it written down somewhere?

2 Thess. 2:3 refers to the falling away. Some understand this to mean the rapture (like Ed). I don't. The gathering that Paul spoke of though is not the rapture. Paul is speaking of the same event that Christ spoke of in Mark 13:27 -

"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven."

Matthew tells of a gathering, but Mark mentions those who are in heaven also. Matthew didn't say anything about heaven.

The gathering of 2 Thess 2 is of all the redeemed to enter and enjoy the kingdom of Christ. This gathering will also include the lost, who will be promptly executed and denied entrance to the kingdom.

The posttrib theory completely ignores John 14. I keep bringing it up, but no one will deal with it. Christ said he would come and take them back to heaven where he would be. Posttrib has Christ meeting them in the air and coming back to earth.

 

That is, dispensational
premillinnial postrib theory completely
ignores John 14.

Futuristic a-millinnial postrib ignores
Revelation 20 (lost in the comma
after DAY OF THE LORD in 2 Peter 3:10)