A Question about Galatians 5:22-23

Just saw this post, didn't know it was addressed to me.

First, I am not Arminian, I do not believe you can lose your salvation. However, I do not agree with Perseverance of the Saints, I believe in Preservation of the Saints which is quite different. I believe that when a person trusts Jesus they receive the indwelling Holy Spirit which has promised never to leave us.

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

I may be unfaithful to Jesus at times, but he will never leave me nor forsake me. It is not my faithfulness that sustains my salvation, but His.

As to faith, I believe all men whether unregenerate or regenerate have the ability to have faith. But it is the object of faith that is important. You may have faith in Islam or Buddism, but that will not save you. Only faith in Jesus Christ can save a man.

Faith is a direct gift from God in that if it were not for the revelation of Jesus Christ through the scriptures that God has given all men, we could not possibly believe in Jesus. This is what Paul clearly points out in Romans 10.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul asks a very simple and direct question here, he asks how can a man believe in Jesus if he has never heard of Jesus?

There is not a person on earth who was walking around ignorant of the gospel who was suddenly regenerated to supernaturally know the gospel. No, if you know the gospel, you either read it in the scriptures that God the Father gave us, or you heard it from someone preaching the gospel from the scriptures.

So, it is impossible for any man to know the gospel and place faith in Jesus if God had not revealed him to us through his Word.

But God's word is not simply ink on paper. The scriptures declare God's word to be quick and powerful. Jesus said his words are spirit, and they are life.

So, when any person learns from God's word, they are being taught by the Spirit.

When an unregenerate man hears the gospel, that is a direct influence of the Holy Spirit upon that man. But it is from the outside, not inside. If the unregenerate man believes the word of God, then the Holy Spirit comes inside the man and regenerates him.

Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to water that he will give any man who asks for it. But the man must drink of this water. If you were dying of thirst and I gave you a glass of water, it will not help you unless you drink it. Well, Jesus showed the same thing with his Word or Spirit.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

It is not enough to simply hear the word of God. That is the same as Jesus giving you a drink of water, but not drinking it. You must drink the water he gives you, that is believe his word.

And faith is a growing thing. As a person believes the word of God, God gives more and faith grows.

Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Notice that Jesus told his disciples to be very careful what they listen to and believe. It is easy for a man to be deceived and believe a lie. But to those who listen to his words (which are Spirit) and believe them, more will be given. Their faith will grow.

But to those who reject the revelation and teaching of the Word (which is Spirit) and do not believe it, God will take from them even what they were originally given. This is what Jesus meant when the said Satan comes and takes away the word sown in their hearts.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

How does the devil take the word of God out of these person's heart? I believe through the deceitfulness of sin. For example, a man my hear the gospel and be very convicted to trust on Christ, but this man loves to drink and get drunk every day. The devil whispers in his ear and tells him if he accepts Jesus he will have to give up this sin. So the man decides not to accept Jesus.

And we see this with the young rich ruler. Jesus told him to sell all that he had and come follow him, and promised him greater treasures in heaven. But the man was reminded of his wealth, his prestige (he was a ruler), and great comforts in life. He was not willing to give up these present pleasures to wait on a promise of future treasure. This is how the devil comes and takes away the word out of a man's heart.

But to those who trust in Jesus and his promises and stays in his Word, their faith will continue to grow.

I hope this has answered your question.

 

May I poke my nose into this conversation? Good. :laugh:


Since we are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit until after we have believed on Christ as our Savior, the faith that is the fruit of the Spirit (in my opinion) is a special mountain moving type of faith that is a gift of God to believers. If you notice, everyone has different amounts of faith. Some have barely enough faith to get through the day and others have huge faith that never seems to doubt the promises of God. I believe this is the fruit of the Spirit faith that Galatians is speaking of.

But that is my opinion.

 

And the difference between the one who believes and the one who doesn't is that one is right and the other is wrong. See, you knew the answer already...it was just there.

 

I don't see how I didn't clearly answer your question. Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing the word of God, and I also showed that God's word itself is spirit as Jesus himself said.

I think the difference between you and me is that you think of faith as some supernatural force or power. To me, faith is simply believing something, whether true or false.

When God gives us faith, that is not some supernatural power of our own, but it is the confidence to believe God's word. If we have faith to remove mountains as Jesus said, it is not us moving the mountain, it is God. You on the other hand seem to believe that it is you that is moving the mountain through some supernatural power given you. I disagree with that, we have no power, God has all the power.

Faith is something that grows as we learn to trust someone or something. I will try to give some examples.

Take a paratrooper. I have never parachuted out of a plane, but I imagine that very first jump is pretty scary for most. I would even be willing to bet that some men get very frightened and refuse to jump. But once a man does get up the courage and has faith that he has prepared his chute in the proper manner, and that the chute is trustworthy, he jumps. And everytime he jumps he becomes more confident. The man who may have had great reluctance and fear on the first jump may be absolutely fearless after one hundred jumps. I don't know for certain never doing this, but it is pretty safe to assume that the more a man jumps, the more confidence he has in his abilities and the safety of his equipment.

As for myself, I can absolutely say my faith in prayer has increased over the years. I have had many prayers answered that I cannot explain any other way. So, everytime God has answered a prayer of mine, I have had more confidence and faith to pray for more and believe they will come to pass. But it is not my faith that is bringing about these things, it is God. I have no power whatsoever.

As Amy said, the faith you are speaking of in Galatians 5 is faith given to people who already are saved. They have already expressed faith in Jesus Christ and the word of God. And as Jesus said, to those who have (faith in his word) more will be given.

Matt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

On another thread I spoke about the father of a son with a dumb or lunatic spirit. This man was discouraged when the disciples could not cast this spirit out. So, it is a little understandable when he was fearful and doubtful when he approached Jesus. But he did believe and Jesus cast this spirit out. It was not this man's faith that cast out this spirit, it was Jesus. Faith allows us to tap into God's power, but faith is not power itself.

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

This statement by Jesus would make no sense unless man has the ability to believe. If a man must be regenerated to have faith, then the regenerate man will have faith without exception, and it is impossible for the unregenerate man to have faith. There is no "if" in Calvinism. But Jesus clearly said "If thou canst believe", showing the man could believe if he chose to do so.

It is not our faith that saves us, it is the object of our faith. If we place our faith in works or some false religion we will be lost, but if we place our faith in Jesus we will be saved. But it is not some power of ours that saves, it is Jesus and his power that saves.

Now have I answered your question?

 

Mr. Obtuse-angle, :thumbs:

Did you not write: "I hope Winman or anyone else can explain why these two points are not at odds." ???

I don't want to speak for Winman, but I doubt he would disagree with me on this point. All things, even the ability to respond in faith, comes from God. My post was to clarify the real point of contention, which really involves the effectuality of the gift...but if you want to talk in circles, be my guest.

 

Skandelon, you are more than welcome to give your opinions. I appreciate the help, sometimes others approach from a different perspective that is helpful.

I don't believe faith is a supernatural force or power, I believe it is a natural ability given to all men. Does that mean that all will believe? No.

Believing is a choice. Let's say you go to a convention and a speaker gets up and says "I will give one dollar to the first man that comes up here on stage!". Now, almost everyone would believe this and probably a few people would jump up to be first (I would not do so for such a small amount).

But what if this man said he would give one hundred thousand dollars to the first man that comes up on stage? Well, that is very different, most people would be very skeptical of such an offer. But you can bet a few people would be willing to take a chance on this offer and run up quickly.

And that is what faith is, it is taking a risk or chance. It is depending on the veracity or honesty of another.

Now, even if this speaker made the unbelievable statement that he would give one hundred thousand dollars to the first person who came up on stage, is there any reason that any person could not get up out of their seat and run up? No.

Faith is a choice, it is a decision to trust or rely upon the veracity of another. Anyone can make this choice at anytime, regardless of the claim or offer made.

I might think this speaker is completely full of baloney and lying. But if I believe even a little that he might possibly be telling the truth, I am going to run up there and try to be first.

So, even the least amount of faith is all it takes.

 

I agree, the ability is given to all men to respond to God's revelation, but unless He invites us we cannot come. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing comes by the Word of God. Thus, God gives faith. It's just not irresistible as Calvinists insist. The offer of reconciliation is the means through which we believe and are reconciled. Without the offer is there is nothing to believe in and no invitation with which to respond.

 

Archangel, if it is clearly one or the other as you say, then explain why the non saved exhibit the fruits of the Spirit? I posted earlier that both saved and non-saved do exhibit the spiritual fruit at times. I further submit the obvious that the saved exhibit the worldly fruit as well at times. The difference is in degree. Your passage doesn't work for the purpose of the OP.

 

Faith for salvation and faith to allow Jesus to be the Lord of your life are two distinctly different types of the same feeling, emotion, gift whatever term you are comfortable with.

Faith as a fruit of the Spirit is a proof of the existance of the fruit tree (Holy Spirit) and would equip the believer to depend on the Lord in any circumstance.

Faith as the vehicle to Grace is a basic dependance on the Lordship of Jesus and His resurection from the dead which brought us salvation.

 

I would have to say I believe you are incorrect on this. Peter is a classic example of one who was saved but was not under the Lordship of Jesus.

Many find salvation only to deny our Lord control of their lives. Maybe I was unclear, when I use the term Lordship it is to acknowledge Him with our lives. I know of no christian who does not step outside the Lordship of Jesus.

 

Satan is a counterfiter. He can counterfit "miracles signs and wonders" (2 Thes. 2:9; Mt. 24:23) and he can counterfit the fruit of the Spirit. However, the counterfits have some other source than the Holy Spirit and are SELF-CENTERED for SELF-GLORY and therefore are ultimately SELF-LOVE.

The context of Galatians 5:22-23 is a contrast within the saved child of God between two natures (Gal. 5:16-17). The fleshly nature was obtained in natural birth. The spiritual nature was obtained in second supernatural birth.

Saving faith is a "work of God" (Jn. 6:29) a "gift" of God (Philip. 1:29; Eph. 2;8) by grace (Rom. 4:16) and is produced by the Holy Spirit (2 Thes. 2:13; Gal. 5:22-23).

Saving faith is inseparable from godly sorrow or gospel repentance which is effectual to salvation (2 Cor. 7:10; Acts 11:18). Therefore, it is inaccurate and improper to say that anyone can just believe in Christ savingly because godly sorrow in repentance precedes the ability to believe in the gospel. Where there is no godly sorrow that leads to repentance there can be no gospel faith as the godly sorrow that leads to repentance is the prerequisite for faith in the gospel. Where there is no such repentance there can be no genuine saving faith.

Godly sorrow unto repentance is not something that any human can manufacture, produce or immitate. It is the work of the Holy Spirit turning the love for sin into hatred of sin and turning the hatred for God into love for God. As long as love for sin and hatred for God is in place NO MAN WILL COME TO CHRIST:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, NEITHER COMETH TO THE LIGHT, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Until their love is turned to hatred and their hatred is turned to love it is impossible for them to believe in Christ (cometh to the light).

If such a love/hatred transformation occurs it is because God supernaturally changed it and in all that God supernaturally changes it, those will come to the Light (Christ) to manifest this was the work of God:


But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

Are you making the ridiculous argument that only born again Christians can exhibit love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control?

Jesus himself said the unregenerate can do good works for those they love.

Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matt 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Jesus here showed that unregenerate and sinful man can do good works. They can love and take care of their families.

So, while love, patience and these other qualities are fruits of the Spirit, the unsaved man can and does exhibit these same qualities as confirmed by Jesus himself.

If this is your argument, you are failing terribly. If only a regenerate man can have faith, then only a regenerate man can love, be peaceful, be patient, be kind, be good, be faithful, be gentle, and show self-control as well. But Jesus himself said the unregenerate can give good gifts to their children and love those that love them.

 

You are not dealing with reality. The fruits of Galatians 5 were clearly dealt with. It does not say gift either. Time to let this one go.

 

Fruit (singular BTW in Galatians) takes time and cultivating to grow.

growth implies something is already there and increasing.

IMO, this passage is speaking of the manifestation of the work of the Father through the Spirit over time sometimes called sanctification.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it,
that it may bring forth more fruit.​

God's agape love has been infused into the children of God and IMO, the increase of the other elements which are components of agape love (joy, peace, lonsuffering...faith) are indications that the Spirit is working in the life of the believer to strengthen, stabilize and mature His children.

I don't know about anyone else but my faith has certainly increased or become stronger and more stable than when I was first saved.

Later and in the same context, Paul shows that this is a joint venture between God and His children.

HankD

 

Thank you Hank. This is the way I see it (and have experienced it) also.