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A question about hell

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Emily25069, Apr 19, 2006.

  1. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be
    tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev. 20:10

    That's Satan and two regular men. This verse is clear that they are all tormented by the fire for ever. Verses 14-15 imply the same fate for the unsaved.

    http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ128.HTM

    http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm

    If people are annihilated then Romans 2:5-6 do not stand.

    But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    Who will render to every man according to his deeds:"

    If every non-believer is burned up when tossed into the lake of fire, then how are the more wicked that receive "the greater damnation" punished more? How can they heap up wrath against the day of wrath if they are annihilated?

    Sorry, but annihilation does not wash biblically.
     
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Well just common sense tells you by reading the Scripture that it is the opposite of everlasting life. (die and never die, God's words)

    Destroy in this context means the same as (die and never die) for hell also will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.
     
  3. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You know if it was up to me I would make it annihilation but who am I to judge another man's servants? [​IMG]
    You said you didn't care what the Baptist believe and I understand why. [​IMG]

    CORRECTION!!
    I STATED THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE IN THE PREVIOUS POST BUT MEANT TO SAY TREE OF LIFE.


    [ April 21, 2006, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
     
  4. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Very good, then you have no problem with interpreting Genesis in a symbolic way. Wonder what our fellow Baptist brethren think of that?

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    I guess this is also Jesus?

    Yes, I agree with you. Then how does a lost man live forever in hell if Jesus is the only way to live forever?

    I’m more concerned with Scripture.

    Many, many scholars disagree. Many who agree with the traditional view.

    Where do you get this definition? Can we just make up definitions as we go?

    apollumi
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to destroy
    1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
    1b) render useless
    1c) to kill
    1d) to declare that one must be put to death
    1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
    1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
    2) to destroy
    2a) to lose
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
    Citing in TDNT: 1:394, 67

    Strongs:
    G622
    ἀπόλλυμι
    apollumi
    ap-ol'-loo-mee
    From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

    So where do you get your interpretation? If separation was what was meant, “death” would have been a much better word.


    You can’t get much more eternal separation than being annihilated.

    Dumb argument since they have no problem rejecting Christ now. They seemingly don’t believe in your view either.

    Is that what you would believe if you thought annihilation was true? Is eternal life with God not good enough? Besides only God is worthy to judge what is a just consequence.

    So are you taking the stand that whenever the Bible says for ever and ever it means never ending? I would be very careful building a doctrine around a verse found in a very symbolic book. However since you seem to take a “literal” approach perhaps you would like to answer the question Brother Bob didn’t want to deal with.

    Is the fire of Jer. 27:17 still burning?

    Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

    Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    How does annihilation fall under these two verses? But let’s look at the next verse shall we?

    Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life :

    Immortality for those who obey. I thought immortality meant to exist forever. How does the lost man gain immortality? Perhaps we need a definition for immortality.

    Why do you assume everyone receives the same punishment? Annihilation is the final punishment but there may be plenty of time to burn those who are lost before the final end.

    Yea, the opposite of everlasting life is life that has an end. Common sense says the opposite of everlasting life is life that is not everlasting.

    You now understand I prefer to go to scripture than Baptist tradition. Which Baptist do you believe? Those of the 21st century or those of the 17th and 18th century? There are big differences in alot of areas.
     
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Yes, how else do you enter into that city. "they shall cry, lo here is Christ and there is Christ but go not after them. I don't know where you get the symbolic, when we are all represented as trees.

    "ever how the tree falls so shall it be"

    If you believe that the lost are just going to go out of existence then we kicking a dead horse, it ain't going getum up. Your going to the Scripture doesn't seem to help you.

    You answered your own question in my favor. You see the word eternal life in that Scripture. We have entered the silly realm now. Reason I say Baptist is because I am one and that goes a long way with me. Your argument has been disputed and cast away long ago. Those who are lost probably love to hear your message though.

    [ April 21, 2006, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
     
  6. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Is the fire of Jer 17 still burning Bob?
     
  7. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Did they hearken unto Him?

    Revelation, chapter 3

    "12": Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


    Romans, chapter 11
    I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    "2": God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

    "3": Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

    "4": But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

    "5": Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    John, chapter 1
    "11": He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    "12": But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    [ April 21, 2006, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    The Word of God tells us that the fires of hell are not quenched, and we know the Bible is a book of truth. In fact, it is the very Word of God. The fires are a reality. The pain and anguish are a reality. The eternal separation from a loving God and compassionate Savior is a reality, for ever and ever.
     
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    As I stated earlier no they did not:


    Jer 52:12 Now in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem,
    Jer 52:13 And burned the house of the LORD, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, and all the houses of the great men, burned he with fire:

    For the third time Bob, is the unquechable fire still burning? It is a simple yes or no question.
     
  10. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    What does your edited portion have to do with the Doctrine of eternal punishment?
     
  11. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    And what is my edited portion?

    I agree with SFIC and Marcia and Jack and all the rest on here, the fires of hell are real and will be cast into the Lake and the smoke of their torment will accend upwards forever and ever.

    There was a remnant of Israel that recieved Jesus and will enter into that eternal home and there is a majority of Israel that God put away and if they died that way their souls are in Hell and they too will be cast into the lake and thier fires will never be quenched. The remnant will receive the eternal home because of obeidence and the rest will receive hell and damnation. Now for the last time if they were lost they will burn in Hell and the Lake if they recieved Christ they will have an eternal home in Heaven.

    Don't accuse me of editing the Scriptures. I may make a word "bold" to try show you but seems to not be working. Well, I sowed the seed so lets hope it will work some time in the future and not be like the lost part of Israel.

    John, chapter 1
    "11": He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    "12": But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
     
  12. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    The portion that I quoted. It wasn’t in your message the first time. What do those verses have to do with the subject of Hell?

    Exactly where did I say you edited scripture?

    It doesn’t work because they have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

    I see again you just can’t answer the Jer. 17 question can you? That should be a red flag for anyone who wishes to study the subject without pre-suppositions. Thats ok, I had the same problem when I began studying the subject. The traditional view does have its weakness, unlike you I don't ignore them I try to resolve them.

    There you go again, introducing passages that have nothing to do with the subject of Hell or the immortality of the soul. Just another smoke screen, Or perhaps you are just questioning my salvation. Who knows.
     
  13. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Hell in this passage is Hades, the grave. It is not hell, the place of punishment. The place of punishment is the LOF.

     
  14. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    A good article by James Patrick Holding refuting the annihilationist arguments, especially from Clark Pinnock. This is just a small excerpt.
    He goes point by point, quoting the pro-annihilationist arguments and responding. I challenge the annihilationists here (strange to have annihilationist Baptists but the world is getting stranger & stranger!) to read this article and still hold to their view.
     
  15. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    More ammunition against annihilationism:

    Article by B. B. Warfield:
    http://www.the-highway.com/articleJuly04.html

    Another one:
    http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3610.html

    I don't see myself how annihilation is punishment. Agnostics, atheists, naturalists, many Neopagans and others see this as a good way to be after death. Many Neopagans like the idea of returning to the elements of nature. Others believe that the unconsciousness after death will be like a peaceful sleep. So tell them that to believe in Jesus is everlasting life with God or to reject him is annihilation and they are likely to respond, "So what? That's what I was going for anyway."
     
  16. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You just can't see that the Remnant did fullfill the question and "His own received Him not" did fullfill your question. It takes God to understand the Scriptures and "he that lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God". Hell is the place of torment for the souls of the wicked until the second death where both death (the grave) and hell (the soul) both of the wicked will be cast into a lake of Fire and Brimstone and it will be eternal punishment for ever and ever and ever and ever!! get the picture?

    Anyway, Marcia pretty well destroyed your argument about just going out of existance.

    And I was adding to the post when you posted before I could put mine back.

    Why should such arguments have to be refuted in the first place is what I don't understand. People always want to read into the Scriptures just what is not there?
     
  17. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You look at Jer 17 in a natural sense knowing full well that the walls were destroyed several times and the excavation continues unto this day but God was talking to Israel in a sense of obedience or disobedience and eternal home or eternal punishment which continues on forever and obedience meant a eternal home and disobeidance meant eternal punishment. If you think the rich man is the only one in hell then you are mistaken and are there flames there, yes and the eternal home;

    Ezekiel, chapter 37
    "10": So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. [​IMG]

    Amen
    BBob
     
  18. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    The righteous have eternal life, the wicked also have an eternal consequence. I don’t really understand why you have such a hard time understanding this. You don’t have to agree, but don’t you see how annihilation is an eternal punishment?

    I wish people on this board will make their own arguments instead of sending me off to web-sites. Is it possible some can’t answer my questions so you just post some web-site for me to debate with?

    Should I start sending you to articles and web-sites? Do you wish to have dueling web-sites? If I can’t comfortably defend my position from scripture on my own, then it means I need more study on the subject.

    So ceasing to exist is not a punishment considering you could have had eternal life?

    As I stated earlier, a dumb argument. God doesn’t determine His justice based on what man thinks or doesn’t think. Again you make Hell more of a reason to come to Christ than salvation and the goodness of God. If you believe they will suddenly come to Christ because you threaten them with Hell, more power to you.

    Perhaps you will now like to answer my question regarding where you get you definitions for “perish” and “destroy”. Certainly wasn’t Thayers or Strongs. Perhaps you would explain to me what the Tree of Life provided? Perhaps you can show me where the soul is immortal? To me these are simple foundational questions. Please no web-sites. Again, I'm not convinced either view is correct or incorrect, but there are some basic questions that I don't seem to get answered from the traditional view, and when you send me to web-sites and Bob quotes unrelated scriptures then it really confirms my beliefs that the traditional view has problems that most have not even considered.

    Gee, I guess that clears up the Hell issue alright.

    So annihilation isn’t for ever and ever????

    Really? I guess you must have read the web-sites.

    You mean like the immortality of the soul? Where is that in scripture Bob?

    You just can’t do it can you? It was a simple yes or no question. It used the term “unquenchable fire” which you love in Revelation but when it is used in other parts of scripture you just want to sweep them under the rug and pretend they’re not there. I feel like I’m debating the preacher from the movie “Sergeant York”.
     
  19. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I like old Sarg! [​IMG]
     
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    The disobedient is in the unquenchable fire (even those in Jer 17) and is what Revelations is talking about along with all the others that are disobedient (obedience is better than sacrifices). You just can't see it.

    Psalms, psalm 23

    "1": The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

    "2": He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

    "3": He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

    "4": Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

    "5": Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

    "6": Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

    [ April 22, 2006, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
     
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