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A question for a Calvinist

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by stilllearning, Aug 19, 2008.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Allan, Are you teasing me with your claim to calvinism? :laugh:
     
  2. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Who me? :wavey:

    Seriously though, I personally know of no non-cal would would deny what I wrote and I don't think any Cal would either.
    We don't disagree on the immutable truths just in some areas of the mechanics.
     
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    One camp gets it right while the other almost gets it right. :thumbs:
     
  4. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    Scripture is clear that God does the choosing, not man. God is active not passive.


    Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

    John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."


    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


    John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."


    Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
    7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
    11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
    13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.



    2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.



    1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.



    Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


    Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

    Matthew 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."


    Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
     
  5. stilllearning

    stilllearning Active Member

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    Hello again FERRON BRIMSTONE

    You said........

    I agree.

    And god chooses, according to his foreknowledge.
     
  6. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    I am assuming you mean that God foreknows that you will accept him and chooses you based on that knowledge.

    This means God sees what you will do and says "ok". In this case man chooses and God is passive, only giving approval to what man will do. This explanation cannot be drawn from scripture.

    Notice in the text I sited above that man is passive and God is active in "choosing".
    God "draws" man to him.

    Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
     
  7. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    God would only be passive if God did not initiate or draw, and if that is the case then you are correct.

    But that is not the case.

    Yes, and Jesus stated that it is now He who will do the drawing, and He stated that He will draw all men unto Himself.

    This does not contradict the non-cal position brother.
    God does indeed choose (has chosen) certain men to salvation and it is/was His choice to save them and why/how He was going to. Also unless God initiate fellowship man will stay right where he is - seperated from God.

    However this does not negate man's involvement nor all men being called. Notice verse 2:
    This speaks about all men can pray to God who is ready to listen but not all who are called by God will come as seen in Prov 1:23-25; Rom 1:18-32; Rom 10:21; 2 Thes 2:10-12; Mat 23:37
     
  8. stilllearning

    stilllearning Active Member

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    Hi FERRON BRIMSTONE


    You got it.

    You said......
    This is exactly what I am saying.

    Then you said.....
    Well what about....
    or
    Or all the other “whosoevers” found in Scripture.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Now I know, that with John 3:16, you might say: (This is “the elected world”), but I am not so sure about that.
     
  9. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    I agree God does the choosing, and man chooses to accept Gods gift of salvation offered to everyone (except those who reject Christ) I don't think anyone on the BB would say God is passive.

    By rejecting Christ, one has made the free will decision to not be one of the elect (believers)

    The verses you offered seem to fall into two categories imo. Either they don't deal with God electing a specific group to salvation at all, or they indicate a person has willfully rejected Christs gift, rejected him thus were not of the elect.

    Agreed :) that the Holy Spirit draws everyone to himself, it is of God that draws people to him.
    All believers imho were certainly " elected" to obtain eternal salvation prior to the formation of the world.

    Romans 9 verses here, imho, doesn't address God electing anyone to salvation. It says God decides whom to have mercy and compassion upon. One verse(s) says God can harden someone's heart.. Except that is still a willful rejection of Christ, a prerequisite for God to do such a thing.

    See Thess Chapter 2 1-12. It is condemning those who reject him, reject his truth. God mentions of sending strong delusions to them who are already primed to receive it, hardening their heart into believing lies. It lists these people as totally depraved, not your average Christian or even unbeliever thus they are easily believing in a lie God willed to cause the person to be condemned to hell. Willingly rejecting God can mean God will assist you with that goal.

    An applicable verse dealing with eternal security :)
    Acts 13:46-48* Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us: ‘ I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

    It says they rejected Christ, so it doesn't prove anything imo. God doesn't force anyone to be with him eternally
     
    #49 Joe, Aug 20, 2008
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  10. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Faith:
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    "God calls to Himself all those of faith." Are you saying they have faith so that the Lord will choose them on that basis?
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I suspected that which is why I asked. I think you are misguided in that understanding. The first (which is true) does not lead to the second (your statement).

    BTW, these types of deductions are what causes a lot of problems. Rather than listening to what people believe, we make it up for them. It is the same thing as saying that Arminians believe they are saved by works because of their view of faith. That, quite frankly, is a silly argument to make. But it is no more right for one side to do it than the other.
     
    #51 Pastor Larry, Aug 20, 2008
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  12. jcjordan

    jcjordan New Member

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    By being conceived.

    The real questions is "How does a person's heart get softened?". Do they do it themself?
     
  13. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    What if: Rev. 3:20 is not speaking to the lost but rather to New Testament Churches? Many churches have left Jesus on the outside. With some churches, Jesus has removed His candlestick. See: the seven churches of Asia, see Rev. 2:5,6; 3:15.

    The key to this discussion is the origin of the faith of those who have it. In as much as man is totally depraved, he has not even a seed of faith as some would say. There are none righteous not one. God calls His children in His time for His good pleasure. Not one will perish He gives them the faith to believe and follow--they hear His voice. See Eph. 2:8-10; John 10:22-29. GRACE, GRACE, GRACE

    This was taught in New Testament Churches 1500 years before Jon Chauvin(Calvin) was birthed.

    Shalom,

    Bro. James
     
    #53 Bro. James, Aug 20, 2008
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  14. jcjordan

    jcjordan New Member

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    Then what is the reason why one would believe and another not?
     
  15. stilllearning

    stilllearning Active Member

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    Hello again Pastor Larry

    You suggested that my mistake was......
    Well, how in the world, can we “listen to what people believe”??

    Other than by what comes out of their mouth.
    --------------------------------------------------
    If a person says.......
    “God is always taking the first step, and is NEVER waiting for us to act.”

    It is perfectly logical to say, that you believe......
    “He never waits for us to make the decision!”
    --------------------------------------------------
    As for your statement about “Arminians”;

    By the words that come out of their mouths, it is perfectly logical to come to the conclusion, that “some of them”, “believe that they are saved by works”!
    --------------------------------------------------
    All we can work with, is the words that come out of people’s mouths!
     
    #55 stilllearning, Aug 20, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2008
  16. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    A text, out of context, is a pretext, to a proof text.

    I suggest that Rev. 3:20 usually ranks extremely high on the list of such Biblical texts.

    As Rusty Sword points out in post #2, this is addressed to the church of the Laodecians, as opposed to any referrence to personal salvation, regardless of where one is positioned along circle (yes, it is a circle, and not any 'straight line') of the so-called Calvinism/Arminianism theological spectrum, and the ensuing false alternatives that are usually presented in the 'C' vs. 'A' debates.

    Ed

    P. S. Now I can read the rest of the six pages of posts that will likely follow along the 'false choices' bunny trail. :rolleyes:
     
  17. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Who hardened Pharaoh's heart??? Here, it was Pharaoh!
    Who hardened Pharoah's heart??? Here, it was the LORD!
    Who hardened Pharoah's heart? Here, it doesn't say who did it. A "joint-undertaking," maybe?

    Ed
     
  18. jcjordan

    jcjordan New Member

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    Ed, Could God have prevented Pharoah's heart from being hardened? I do believe that Pharoah was fully responsible for the hardness of his heart. But yet, if God's purposes had been different, He could have actually softened Pharoah's heart.
     
  19. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    I'm a different fence post, here. :rolleyes:

    But I wondered if anyone may have noticed that Rom. 3:10b-18 is the quoting of a combination of 8 different OT texts, here, to establish the argument Paul has made ["I use a human argument:" (Rom. 3:5b - HCSB)] in showing that both Jews and Greeks were all under sin, and there is no difference in this standing before God, despite the fact that the Jews [the chosen and elect, in one manner (Deut. 7:6; 10:15; Isa. 45:4)] had an 'advantage' where to them were commited the 'oracles of God" (Rom.3:2)?

    Ed
     
    #59 EdSutton, Aug 20, 2008
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  20. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    :rolleyes:

    Ed
     
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